• Welcome to MCME!

    Minecraft Middle Earth is a Minecraft community that recreates the world described by JRR Tolkien and his writings. Everyone can participate in organized events in which we collaborate to create major landmarks, terrain, caves, castles, towns, farms and more.

    To get started, visit The New Player Guide

    Joining the server

    Joining the server can be done straight away, but you will have to pass the New Player Quiz. Use the The New Player Guide to get acquainted with our community.

    IP: build.mcmiddleearth.com

Server ideas/wishful talk

Everyone comment their favorite character ever in the Tolkien franchise. I'll start:

Tar-Palantír- Because he was the only one who saw the doom of Númenor coming and tried his hardest to appease the Valar. In vain. So I think he deserves some creds, because the other Elendili like Elendil, Isildur and Anárion have alot of them.
 
Gil-Galad
I don't know. Maybe because he has a spear. Spears are cool.
Seriously, he' one of the noblest character. Thanks to him, free peoples fought against Sauron, and won.
 
The main point - which you could have brought up - is a recorded event where Tolkien asks a young student if he thought there might be fairies living in the flower they were looking at. Tolkien liked the fairy tale side of the world.

Thus why Tolkien created a mythological history based on the Norse Eddas and other fragmented legends and mythologies (and a dash of Christian theology). He never intended it to be literal.

You've convinced me, but the thing is. Now we can accuse Tolkien of being racist.

This is inane. Tolkien based his works upon Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon mythologies, and so it would be odd if there were a mixture of peoples (European, Asian, African etc.) living in northwestern Middle-earth (the mythological equivalent of Western Europe). Tolkien was English, and wanted to make a mythology for England. Therefore he wrote The Lord of the Rings according to his people's point of view. He could not make his protagonists, say, Incan or Japanese, or even put the setting anywhere else than (an alternative) North-western Europe, in spirit if not in actuality.

The whole of Tolkien's legendarium contains a conflict between literal light (The Trees, the Silmarils) and darkness (the literal absence of light). Morgoth's standard was "sable unblazoned" (that is, plain black). "Mordor" means "black land" in Sindarin. If you were to therefore assert this distinction represents some kind of subtle racism on Tolkien's part, you would be ignoring the fact that Eol, father of Maeglin was known as the Dark Elf, and the Moriquendi were called the Elves of Darkness. Both of these terms refer to remaining outside the light of the Two Trees, not to skin tone. The Black Númenóreans are likewise named because of the color of their allegiance to Sauron and their heraldry, not their skin tone.

You can point to the Easterlings, some of whom are described as being of fairly dark skin complexion ("swarthy") or the Haradrim are who are described as black-skinned, and some of whom are at least inspired by Indian cultures - fighting on Mumakil-back, for example - as evidence of racism. Again, this would be completely ignoring the context of the established legendarium.

Firstly, the the the Woses are primitive, small, and alien compared to other peoples, yet they are valuable allies against Sauron. While Tolkien does not mention their skin colour, they were considered monsters by the Rohirrim who hunted them as animals, which the narrative explicitly condemns. However in the First Age they were counted as Edain, or noble Men, and were allies of the Elves. Furthermore, not all enemies are non-white. Noteworthy examples are Saruman, Gríma, Gollum, and at least two of the Nazgûl. Also, Lotho Sackville-Baggins and the ruffians are white-skinned and cruel characters who ravage and take over the Shire.

Indeed, during the time-frame of Lord of the Rings those enslaved and serving Sauron in Núrn are darker-skinned people from the South and East, and thus had no choice in the matter (Aragorn grants them their own land after the War of the Ring, incidentally). More to the point, it is clear that Sauron's tyranny frightened and coerced the Easterlings and Haradrim into an alliance with him, just as his craftiness tricked the Noldor and the Númenóreans. Furthermore, they had good reason to hate Gondor anyway, as they had fought many wars against it, and indeed many territories of the Haradrim were forced to pay tribute to the borderline imperialistic Gondor for hundreds of years. They weren't just fighting against Gondor because they were evil Eastern people intent on destroying good Western culture - indeed, not only the East and South are associated with evil, and neither were they always so. In the First Age, evil came from the North when Morgoth based himself in Angband, as it did when the Witch-king took up residence in Angmar. All Men and Elves first awoke in the East. Boromir is introduced as a "man of the South".

One only needs to look to Sam for evidence of understanding and empathy between the West and the Haradrim:

"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil at heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace."

It must also be made clear that during the history of Middle-Earth many of the white races of man and even some Elves were fooled and coerced by the Enemy. It is not simply some 'weakness' of the Haradrim and the Easterlings, simply a reflection of the Enemy's corrupting influence over all the Children of Ilúvatar.

Let us look to Tolkien himself. As you may know, when a German publisher looked to publish the Hobbit in Nazi Germany, they asked Tolkien if he was of entirely German descent, and whether he had any Jewish ancestors. This is part of his response (Letter 30):

"I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware None of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people."

Another few quotes:

"I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones."

"The treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out from Britain, & not only in South Africa. Unfort[unately], not many retain that generous sentiment for long."

"Anyway, I have in this War a burning private grudge—which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler (for the odd thing about demonic inspiration and impetus is that it in no way enhances the purely intellectual stature: it chiefly affects the mere will). Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light."

My final point on this matter is one of relativism. Tolkien was telling the story from one side - not a side that was defined along racial lines, as I hope I have made clear - but along the lines of those who fought against Sauron and those who fought for him. If one were to write a historical fiction novel set during the time of the Crusades, and the protagonist was a crusading Teutonic knight who called the Muslims he was fighting against "cruel" and "evil" would that make the author a racist? More to the point, would that make the protagonist a bad person? Would his reaction and views be understandable? I'll leave you with that thought, since this response has gotten too long already.

And to people who fill in all the gaps in the legendarium with real world stuff so that the Shire=England, Rohan=England, Tol Eressea=England - I still accuse you of being boring with no creativity. This is what I try to stop whenever I say Middle-earth does not equal the real earth.

Nobody has said that the Shire equals England, or that Rohan equals England. Strawman arguments won't hold up here. All that I said was that the Shire is heavily based on rural 19th century English culture, and that Rohan is heavily based on Anglo-Saxon culture. You might have noticed that Englishmen don't live in holes in the ground and aren't three feet tall.

All that I have said is that these cultural similarities means that it would be valuable to look at medieval Arabic/steppe/African cultures to come up with ideas for structures and social organisation. It doesn't prevent creativity, it just provides a basis for it.
 
Last edited:
Where is Mordor on earth - Hawaii perhaps?

This is so asinine I'm not even going to bother to address it.

How can there be multiple pre-histories of England? Do the Rohirrim eventually migrate north or do the holbytla migrate south?

Because it's not a literal pre-history of England.

Does Tolkien ever directly call the Haradrim the Arabs?

No, and he never calls the hobbits the English.

Why does the Africa-looking continent in that map get destroyed to the point of it not looking like Africa anymore at the end of the First Age and again at the destruction of Numenor?

The entire world has been re-shaped since that time in the legendarium. I posted that map simply to demonstrate that Tolkien was inspired by the Earth as a whole in his world creation.

What does a half-troll look like, is he what you would expect nowadays to be walking around?

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. I expect humans to be walking around nowadays, unless I've missed a memo.

Would he really call Attila the Hun a name that is also used for Orcs?

I'm not familiar with this implication.

Should there be obvious distinctions so that Middle-earth is not directly equated to the real earth, and rather spread the influences out to other parts of the real earth? Like using Middle-eastern music themes in Lothlorien, having Kiribati armour and Aztec jewel decorations on the Haradrim?

Sure. However, my point remains that the primary inspiration for their structures should come from the cultures that they were loosely inspired by, and not just from anywhere or just from our own imaginations.
 
The wiki is not quite updated yet, but I have made a resource with all current and ex-staff, artists, rangers and applications here.
One tiny teeny thing. The editor rank would be more appropriately placed beneath the steward rank.

also
steward:
BLOODAXED, TheFro2, Smtg, Fawkes07 (left before steward)
credoo, bevsforbros, aandolaf2

editor:
bevsforbros, alekspaleks, Smtg, bobow95

designer:
TheFro2, BLOODAXED, Fawkes07 (left before designer)
bobow95, bevsforbros,

bounder/officer
kulmo

foreman:
BigJeyEm
 
I know this is non cannon and would never happen but it would be so cool if we did this
tumblr_m1ahlwFlaD1qfsg9so1_500.jpg
 
I'm not sure Hogwarts' grounds are the size of Europe. And Westeros is about five times larger than that, I think.
I know it's inaccurate but if the was edited a little which would mean as you said You would have to make the Hogwarts ground smaller and Westeros bigger. It was just the idea of combining middle earth with many other fantasy worlds sounded cool.
 
Also about the racism thing, here are some of Tolkien's letter responses:
"I must say that the enclosed letter from Rutten & Loening is a bit stiff. Do I suffer this impertinence because of the possession of a German name, or do their lunatic laws require a certificate of arisch origin from all persons of all countries? ... Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Bestatigung (although it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine."
Letter 29 — Tolkien's German publishers had asked whether he was of Aryan origin
"Thank you for your letter... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware noone (sic) of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people."
Letter 30 (Tolkien's unsent response to his German publishers; a more neutral version was ultimately sent)
"There was a solemn article in the local paper seriously advocating systematic exterminating of the entire German nation as the only proper course after military victory: because, if you please, they are rattlesnakes, and don't know the difference between good and evil! (What of the writer?) The Germans have just as much right to declare the Poles and Jews exterminable vermin, subhuman, as we have to select the Germans: in other words, no right, whatever they have done."

Link: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien's_Works

@Fornad
 
  • Like
Reactions: B_n
Also about the racism thing, here are some of Tolkien's letter responses:
"I must say that the enclosed letter from Rutten & Loening is a bit stiff. Do I suffer this impertinence because of the possession of a German name, or do their lunatic laws require a certificate of arisch origin from all persons of all countries? ... Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Bestatigung (although it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine."
Letter 29 — Tolkien's German publishers had asked whether he was of Aryan origin
"Thank you for your letter... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware noone (sic) of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people."
Letter 30 (Tolkien's unsent response to his German publishers; a more neutral version was ultimately sent)
"There was a solemn article in the local paper seriously advocating systematic exterminating of the entire German nation as the only proper course after military victory: because, if you please, they are rattlesnakes, and don't know the difference between good and evil! (What of the writer?) The Germans have just as much right to declare the Poles and Jews exterminable vermin, subhuman, as we have to select the Germans: in other words, no right, whatever they have done."

Link: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien's_Works

@Fornad
It's worth noting that these letters were sent at the time of Nazi Germany, Tolkien wasn't just being a Twat to the German publishers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: B_n
Lizzy and I are at College right now, I'm afraid I don't have the link, I assume she can access it through her google drive but not sure if she'll be online before the end of the day. Either way, I can probably fix it by 3'o clock UTC.
Lucky I finish school early today!
Going to be adding the rank document to resources in a minute. Thanks for the info though MaD! Updated c:
 
This is so asinine I'm not even going to bother to address it.



Because it's not a literal pre-history of England.



No, and he never calls the hobbits the English.



The entire world has been re-shaped since that time in the legendarium. I posted that map simply to demonstrate that Tolkien was inspired by the Earth as a whole in his world creation.



I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. I expect humans to be walking around nowadays, unless I've missed a memo.



I'm not familiar with this implication.



Sure. However, my point remains that the primary inspiration for their structures should come from the cultures that they were loosely inspired by, and not just from anywhere or just from our own imaginations.

I now agree with you and thank you for these answers and the research you did Fornad.
 
At the top yes - I certainly wonder what his chambers would have been like? =D

However, Morgoth had his throne below the ground in Angband.
 
Back
Top