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In some ways it does, since Tolkien saw
Middle-earth as our own Earth in the distant past, and there are many cultures within it that are pretty much directly equal to real-world counterparts (Shire = rural 1800s England, Rohan = Anglo-Saxons, and so on).

Furthermore, it is useful to look at these cultures, as humans in similar environments will often develop similar structures and ways of life in response to those environments.

But it was never an exact replica. For example, the Rohirrim in the legendarium were an upgrade to the historical Anglo-Saxons, because they had horses, and the southern kingdom wasn't ruled by William. For the Shire to be the Victorian Age it needs more to compare than just rolling green hills hit by a sudden industrialisation (isn't that the only thing that is similar).

Within Middle-earth there is a long list of peoples and places that had ideas from the history and geography of England. Take Tol Eressea as another example, it was to become England in an early draft. One of those terrible maps that seek to meld Middle-earth to Earth should have little Englands all over the place.


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You can request textures here.
http://mcmiddleearth.com/forums/design.37/
Or if you would like me to make a texture then there is my thread.
http://mcmiddleearth.com/threads/matts-texture-dev-topic.244/
 
But it was never an exact replica. For example, the Rohirrim in the legendarium were an upgrade to the historical Anglo-Saxons, because they had horses

That is true. However, their buildings are exactly the same (longhalls), and their culture and governmental system is also the same. Their language is also 'translated' into Old English, the language of the Anglo-Saxons - mearas means 'horses' and Théoden means 'leader of a people' (he is addressed as 'Théoden king' rather than 'King Théoden' due to Old English grammar - one would transcribe it as 'þeoden cyning'). Even the poem 'Where now the horse and the rider?' is adapted from the Old English poem 'The Wanderer'.

For the Shire to be the Victorian Age it needs more to compare than just rolling green hills hit by a sudden industrialisation (isn't that the only thing that is similar)

There are far more similarities than that. The name 'Shire' is an obvious one, as are the other placenames in the Shire sounding very English indeed (Frogmorton, Whitfurrows, Woody End, Oatbarton etc.). There are also the various dialects, social classes (rural aristocrats like Merry and Pippin, well-to-do middle class hobbits like Bilbo and Frodo, and lower class servants like Sam), the governmental system (the powerless, hereditary 'head of state', the Thain and an elected leader, the Mayor), and so on (the Shire Post Office being another good example). Even the hobbit brothers Marcho and Blanco are directly analogous to Hengest and Horsa, legendary leaders who brought the Saxons to Britain (both sets of names are related to horses).

When it comes to the hobbits' adventure, the similarities become even more apparent - Sam's loyalty to Frodo is very similar to that of an English 'batman' (effectively a squire) to his officer, and British officers in World War One were almost entirely composed of upper and middle class men, whereas the privates were largely lower class.

Honestly, any English (or even British) person can see how incredibly English the Shire is, in the traditional sense.

Within Middle-earth there is a long list of peoples and places that had ideas from the history and geography of England. Take Tol Eressea as another example, it was to become England in an early draft. One of those terrible maps that seek to meld Middle-earth to Earth should have little Englands all over the place.

I would contend that nothing even begins to approach the Shire in terms of similarities to England. Onto the subject of maps - this is a map from the Ambarkanta:

arda-map-3-tolkien.gif


As Middle-earth is meant to be our Earth in the distant past, you can quite easily see the similarities (the rough shape of Africa being the most obvious). Just to clear any confusion about that up:

"...imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet."
  • [The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 220 (#165)]
"I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. ... The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary."
  • [The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 239 (#183)]
If there are such heavy cultural similarities between inhabitants of the west of Middle-earth and the Western world of our own past, we must therefore assume that strong cultural similarities exist between the Haradrim and 10th century Arabs, for example, or between the Balchoth and nomadic steppe tribes of central Asia. Some Easterlings could even be seen as coming from the Far East, given their 'sallow skin' and well-crafted armour and weaponry.
 
@Fornad omg that post was so well-constructed!

@MattTheLegoman Fornad is very right about ME being real world, but the actual design of the peoples, nations, and tribes elsewhere is up to us to invent. All that's being suggested is that we draw on the equivalent cultures from our history, so that our ME will fit more with Tolkien's vision and be more realistic.
 
The main point - which you could have brought up - is a recorded event where Tolkien asks a young student if he thought there might be fairies living in the flower they were looking at. Tolkien liked the fairy tale side of the world.

You've convinced me, but the thing is. Now we can accuse Tolkien of being racist.

And to people who fill in all the gaps in the legendarium with real world stuff so that the Shire=England, Rohan=England, Tol Eressea=England - I still accuse you of being boring with no creativity. This is what I try to stop whenever I say Middle-earth does not equal the real earth.

  • Where is Mordor on earth - Hawaii perhaps?
  • How can there be multiple pre-histories of England? Do the Rohirrim eventually migrate north or do the holbytla migrate south?
  • Does Tolkien ever directly call the Haradrim the Arabs?
  • Why does the Africa-looking continent in that map get destroyed to the point of it not looking like Africa anymore at the end of the First Age and again at the destruction of Numenor?
  • What does a half-troll look like, is he what you would expect nowadays to be walking around?
  • Would he really call Attila the Hun a name that is also used for Orcs?
  • Should there be obvious distinctions so that Middle-earth is not directly equated to the real earth, and rather spread the influences out to other parts of the real earth? Like using Middle-eastern music themes in Lothlorien, having Kiribati armour and Aztec jewel decorations on the Haradrim?
 
By the way matt, the last segment of your questioned post is not true, Tolkien never really described the armor of the easterlings and haradrim, that is a movie-based argument :P.
 
Also, tolkien NEVER explained the armor and peoples being exactly like earth, he was just talking about geography :P. Cultures may refer to the real earth in a very loose form, but tolkien invented his own languages not like our earth.
 
I gave it a try. I did a new block texture and a little olive tree place thing very fast, so it lacks quality but you can get the idea:
15D5Sho.png

I think it looks more "mediterranean"
I think the only thing that makes it look "Mediterranean" is that creeper over on the left side:p

Seriously though, that's a good idea. I think the color of the dirt would need to be a bit more subtle for it to fit in with the grass.
 
also its not quite as red as the color in the picture you provided; i personally liked the slightly redder color more
 
By the way matt, the last segment of your questioned post is not true, Tolkien never really described the armor of the easterlings and haradrim, that is a movie-based argument :p.

What?

I asked if:
  • "there should be obvious distinctions so that Middle-earth is not directly equated to the real earth"
  • we should "spread the influences out to other parts of the real earth"/use cultural variety when we look for influences to help us make Middle-earth
Then I gave some examples of how cultural variety is show by WETA to design the Haradrim and Howard Shore used some interesting themes, that sound like they were inspired by Middle-eastern themes in music, in Caras Galadhon and The Mirror of Galadriel.
 
I picture the Variags as more Central Asian/western Mongol, like they are portrayed in the LOTR mod for Mount and Blades Warband for some reason I couldn't paste in my screenshot, but to get the right idea check out this video (skip to around 15:00) :
 
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Breaking up the armor debate a bit, but we should have a rank for ex-staff, like 'Retired' or 'Veteran.' I think they deserve some recognition, and new members won't know who they are. For example, I had no idea @AeroBlitz was ever on staff until like a week ago.
 
Breaking up the armor debate a bit, but we should have a rank for ex-staff, like 'Retired' or 'Veteran.' I think they deserve some recognition, and new members won't know who they are. For example, I had no idea @AeroBlitz was ever on staff until like a week ago.
Do you suggest extra permissions, or just a different "prefix?" (Instead of Commoner AeroBlitz, it would say Retired AeroBlitz when he chatted)
 
Breaking up the armor debate a bit, but we should have a rank for ex-staff, like 'Retired' or 'Veteran.' I think they deserve some recognition, and new members won't know who they are. For example, I had no idea @AeroBlitz was ever on staff until like a week ago.
Kind of pointless imo. You can check the Ex-staff list on the Wiki here.
Also, that's sort of like what the Honored rank was (no real purpose beyond the title), and there was a reason that rank was removed.
 
Do you suggest extra permissions, or just a different "prefix?" (Instead of Commoner AeroBlitz, it would say Retired AeroBlitz when he chatted)
Yeah basically just a prefix, no special privileges. Just for the recognition was the idea.
 
The wiki is not quite updated yet, but I have made a resource with all current and ex-staff, artists, rangers and applications here. That you could also check out.
I really like the idea of giving them some sort of respect and I'm sure most miss /tp command, but I can understand the reason as to why the rank honoured was removed due to lack of purpose.
 
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