About Pelargir

[Fornad]

I does not come from the films. I don't see any roman/greek-like building in the movies.

Uh.. the Roman/Byzantine architectural style is incredibly prevalent in the films' depiction of Gondor.

Spoiler: Comparisons

 

[Bombur8]

Well, many arches for sure. But there are also many towers and "square-domes". Well, I was a bit to harsh with "I don't see any", but when I see MT, it remind me more the Italy of the Renaissance than the Antic Roma.

 

[Bombur8]

And I know that style was istelf inspired by the roman one, but still...

 

[Will_em]

Guys, try to give sources when it's about lore or movie inspiration. Otherwise you can't state those as facts. It's just more beneficial for the discussion. Otherwise we fall into the endless pit of 'what that person thinks it looks like' or 'what I think tolkien imagined'. Although a fun pit not one you can draw conclusions from.
I wouldn't have believed fornad if I hadn't seen the source.
Ok that's all.

 

[JordD04]

Lore-wise, that's not exactly true - saying that Gondor definitively should resemble Rome or Greece is a misconception from the films. Letter 211:

"The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled ‘Egyptians’ – the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in ‘theology’ : in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan…) I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but at an angle. The N. Kingdom had only a diadem the difference between the N. and S. kingdoms of Egypt."

I had always taken the quote to be in terms of idealism rather than architecture. Gondorian land seemed to resemble that of the North Med more than the South so the resources etc would be different.

 

[JordD04]

Making it triangular wont make it a generic coastal city? I is turning into a debate of taste neither side is right or wrong. I do not like a triangular port city. This aint Riverrun(GoT fans yay). Some rpg project made a triangular design and now you guys who usually fight for lore and don't care about looks defend an layout that in my eyes is not only impractical but also not pleasing for the eye. You can use arguments like this aint Egypt and such but Mediterranean city's used sandstone just as their eastern counter parts did. If this truly is a battle about taste I wont win this but neither will you. You either like it or you don't. Time will tell what will happen when we finish this version maybe you will like it and I wont or we all like it or no one does etc.. Luckily for you nothing ever last more then 3 years on this server before it gets either revamped or redone.

Firstly, yes, making it triangular wont make it a generic coastal city.
Also, it's quite insulting that you would suggest the real lore fans on the server don't care about appearance, we had a problem with people sacrificing lore accuracy to either "make it pretty" or make it fit with the films.
There is no in-depth description of Pelargir in the books so it's reasonable to just go with whatever. It's only ever a problem when it breaks the Lore! I personally don't think the triangle is impractical at all, and the Gondorians were certainly the sort of people to go out and say "look I have a bigger dick than you and I can prove it with my massive stone city", the triangle is impressive architecture. Also, though Sandstone was used on the Med I believe it was usually used as a cheap alternative to stronger stones. Sandstone is sedimentary (the weakest and softest kind of rock), a city like Pelargir would be rich enough to get hold of some stronger materials.
"If this truly is a battle about taste I wont win this but neither will you."
That's not true, we're fortunate enough that the forum can host polls, it's as simple as putting a poll in a thread and seeing what the opinion of community is. After all, it's not for me, it's not for you, it's for the community, so why not build what the community wants to see?

 

[Will_em]

Guys,
I see some guys talking about scale and that diagonals are possible. Why not try to convince the other side that it looks good. Make examples, get together, start something. We have so many people on here that love to build then why not try to make a good triangle pelargir example on freebuild? I find a bit sad that this dissagreement of styles doesn't instigate to constructive actions.

On the note of jord: how do we objectively asses what the community wants? You know that's tricky with mcme because of the sheer number of people on and with a pressure of producing quality.
How do we build what people want?
We need concepts, styles, voting, textures, helpers, builders,... How do we get it and who's going to manage that?
If we do try to find solutions for these answers, who is going to find them? Do we want to spend the staff time into those tasks or do we want to build more?
Those are though questions and even if someone would stick out his neck, either it will be chopped off or he will go play other games. In my knowledge there is only 1 person who decided to do another version of something we made and he will always have the utmost respect from me for doing that. Fornad dissagreed with mcme and instead of moping he went and built him a quality map, rounded a team, stayed friendly, and he is still doing it. Being staff, I know how much shit you get trown at you, I personally dissagree with some of his point of views but man, he's constructive.

So who's going to do something and prove the good points on this thread?
Camera, set and... action!

 

[Credoo]

Firstly, yes, making it triangular wont make it a generic coastal city.

I could say this is insulting the current effort we put into planning Pelargir by calling it generic.

Also, it's quite insulting that you would suggest the real lore fans on the server don't care about appearance, we had a problem with people sacrificing lore accuracy to either "make it pretty" or make it fit with the films.

I should have worded that different I'm sorry about that. What I mean was you usually care more about lore and are willing to sacrifice good looks. So I find it strange for you to be on the good look side. Which is not really on topic but just a random thought I decided to write.

Well I do think making a triangle is impractical as I said many times before. Also I already said that the "general" layout is now set and wont be changed until this project is finished (if we decided to change now we'd lose a couple weeks worth of work). Might not seem much but hey you know I have other stuff to do then just minecraft so I am on limited time. A triangle city is impressive but very hard to create in such a way that it is pleasing to look at in minecraft (in my opinion of course) hence the decision.

Guys/Girls I'm open for suggestions but this is turning into a "I like triangle" vs "I don't like triangle" the outcome wont matter at this point in time because it has already been decided to do it set way. Now lets say if you for example are holding all the creative reigns in the future you can decide to recreate it in a triangle shape if that so pleases you.

After all, it's not for me, it's not for you, it's for the community, so why not build what the community wants to see?

I'm putting allot of effort in it to make it look as good as I can create it. And I have a very strong idea that I can create it better in the way that we are planning Pelargir right now then if we would have done a triangular shape. I think the community wants to see awesome stuff some think non triangular stuff is awesome others think triangular stuff is awesome. I can probably deliver non triangular Pelargir awesome because i like it. But I wont be able to deliver triangular Pelargir awesome because I don't like it. I put my heart into the stuff I build and i cant do that if i'm building something i do not 100% stand behind. I do hope you respect that.

 

[JordD04]

I did some crude texture pack work:

Spoiler: Dol Amroth

Sandstone

Grey Stone

White Stone

Spoiler: Pelargir

Sandstone

Grey Stone

White Stone

I just carried some colours over from other parts of the resource pack, It was fairly rushed.
Also, I didn't give an example of any new colours because I don't know how to change the colours of the textures.

 

[FallenSanity]

So, I've got a question - and this may come off as insulting, I don't know.

Why are we going with the cartoon castles style for walls rather than the styles that Rome actually used? I'm sorry, but these simply look nonsensical, and honestly, quite weak. Also, I must ask (and this is based only one what I've seen, which isn't a whole lot), why are the rooves of houses taller than the walls intended to defend them, and why are they so close to the walls at all? If there was a siege, those walls would prove completely useless, as anything going over them would directly come into contact with the civilian populace.

Again, sorry if this comes off as insulting to all the work you guys are doing, but I needed to ask.

 

[MaDIIReD]

-

Well I can' t answer the cartoonish vs. roman architecture as I don't want to do any work to look things up But I can answer the why are things so close to the wall. People built cities and then those cities would expand. Within the city walls things were a lot safer than outside so as many people as possible were crammed into this area. As a result people would try to fit as many houses into the area as possible, and no space would be left unused. People would build right up to the walls all the time. (based on my experience in 'medieval/renaissance' cities in Italy, France, and the Netherlands)

Also the walls were mainly based to stop people from walking into the city, not so much from stopping big rocks from being hurled into the houses behind them.

 

[Portalrules333]

Well I can' t answer the cartoonish vs. roman architecture as I don't want to do any work to look things up But I can answer the why are things so close to the wall. People built cities and then those cities would expand. Within the city walls things were a lot safer than outside so as many people as possible were crammed into this area. As a result people would try to fit as many houses into the area as possible, and no space would be left unused. People would build right up to the walls all the time. (based on my experience in 'medieval/renaissance' cities in Italy, France, and the Netherlands)

Also the walls were mainly based to stop people from walking into the city, not so much from stopping big rocks from being hurled into the houses behind them.

Yep, I'm sure that if the entire city had been designed before being built, the homes would have been farther back from the walls. However, medieval people didn't have the convenience of modern city-planners.

 

[Ardelenia]

Why are we going with the cartoon castles style for walls rather than the styles that Rome actually used? I'm sorry, but these simply look nonsensical, and honestly, quite weak.

I don't really see your point, unless you are merely commenting that the amount of crenellations makes our walls look unrealistic. The designs on our walls are based on real things and (mostly) seem practical; the links you provided do not look incredibly different from anything in gondor.

 

[Credoo]

So, I've got a question - and this may come off as insulting, I don't know.

Why are we going with the cartoon castles style for walls rather than the styles that Rome actually used? I'm sorry, but these simply look nonsensical, and honestly, quite weak. Also, I must ask (and this is based only one what I've seen, which isn't a whole lot), why are the rooves of houses taller than the walls intended to defend them, and why are they so close to the walls at all? If there was a siege, those walls would prove completely useless, as anything going over them would directly come into contact with the civilian populace.

Again, sorry if this comes off as insulting to all the work you guys are doing, but I needed to ask.

The average wall thickness of a medieval wall was around 2,5 and 6m (according to Wikipedia). The wall of Pelargir now varies in thickness between 5 and 9m, I don't see how you see that as weak.
I don't see why they would look nonsensical, the battlements and crenelations serve a purpose as well as the taluse ( the / shape at the bottom of the wall makes it harder to put siege ladders against it at the bottom).
Also I don't know what roof you are measuring because the highest roof I measured was at y:27.5 and our walls are at y:30 excluding the battlements. The towers in the city are gonna be sticking out over the walls though.

However I will look into house placement although I think what Mad and Ardelenia already pointed out they weren't such great planners back in the day (the architect who designed a triangular layout of Pelargir would obviously disagree).

I dont think your comments where insulting. I only hope to see you back up your statements with a bit of evidence and or background information.

 

[DSESGH]

It would even be advantageous to build taller houses next to the walls. Archers could stand on top of the houses, a little way back from the fighting on the walls. You'd also be able to have a lot more archers this way.

 

[Glov]

It would even be advantageous to build taller houses next to the walls. Archers could stand on top of the houses, a little way back from the fighting on the walls. You'd also be able to have a lot more archers this way.

wat

 

[DSESGH]

wat

Whatever, it's not important because the houses in Pelargir aren't that tall anyway.

 

[Fornad]

As a result people would try to fit as many houses into the area as possible, and no space would be left unused. People would build right up to the walls all the time. (based on my experience in 'medieval/renaissance' cities in Italy, France, and the Netherlands)

Some people were even allowed to live in city gatehouses during times of peace as long as they maintained them. Walls weren't necessarily wholly military structures when it came to their usage.

 

[FallenSanity]

.

See, I understand what you're saying here, but I disagree with it's implementation. If the houses on the border are indeed those style houses (which they should be), they'd certainly not be large gabled houses, coz those aren't area friendly. They'd be square or rectangular, and likely be little more than five meters in height. They'd have a bedroom, a kitchen, and that'd probably be it. Houses the size of those in Pelargir would be expensive to make and expensive to maintain and repair.

And while I understand that the walls aren't entirely military based - they would be. This is Pelargir, one of the major cities of Gondor. Pelargir especially was a major port of conflict, and it'd be extremely well defended, otherwise the Corsairs would've claimed it and held onto it long ago.

.

Did you happen to measure that from the thickest point on your walls, or from the random holes and indentations that litter their faces? Walls should not be made to look pretty, they should be simple surfaces. Adding all those things, especially in the world of Middle Earth, would actually aid any enemies trying to climb over them, like Orcs or worse.

I know that they all serve purposes - I'm not saying they as concept are silly, I'm saying how they've been made in this particular job (well, the entire server bar Minas Tirith in my opinion, but that's another debate) look silly. They've over exaggerated and so large that it'd be quite difficult to actually defend the walls. Part of this is of course the limitations of Minecraft, I'll admit.

As for 'they weren't such great planners back in the day', that's simply false. Minas Tirith was a freaking mountain backed, multi-tiered city. Pelragir is a TRIANGLE. These are planned very specifically and with immense work behind them, and let's not even discuss the influence Mannish constructs had from the likes of Elves, whose structures were immensely planned out.

.

Someones never stood on a shingled roof before. They're not known for their supportive ability - they're not made for it.

 

[Portalrules333]

See, I understand what you're saying here, but I disagree with it's implementation. If the houses on the border are indeed those style houses (which they should be), they'd certainly not be large gabled houses, coz those aren't area friendly. They'd be square or rectangular, and likely be little more than five meters in height. They'd have a bedroom, a kitchen, and that'd probably be it. Houses the size of those in Pelargir would be expensive to make and expensive to maintain and repair.

And while I understand that the walls aren't entirely military based - they would be. This is Pelargir, one of the major cities of Gondor. Pelargir especially was a major port of conflict, and it'd be extremely well defended, otherwise the Corsairs would've claimed it and held onto it long ago.



Did you happen to measure that from the thickest point on your walls, or from the random holes and indentations that litter their faces? Walls should not be made to look pretty, they should be simple surfaces. Adding all those things, especially in the world of Middle Earth, would actually aid any enemies trying to climb over them, like Orcs or worse.

I know that they all serve purposes - I'm not saying they as concept are silly, I'm saying how they've been made in this particular job (well, the entire server bar Minas Tirith in my opinion, but that's another debate) look silly. They've over exaggerated and so large that it'd be quite difficult to actually defend the walls. Part of this is of course the limitations of Minecraft, I'll admit.

As for 'they weren't such great planners back in the day', that's simply false. Minas Tirith was a freaking mountain backed, multi-tiered city. Pelragir is a TRIANGLE. These are planned very specifically and with immense work behind them, and let's not even discuss the influence Mannish constructs had from the likes of Elves, whose structures were immensely planned out.



Someones never stood on a shingled roof before. They're not known for their supportive ability - they're not made for it.

Tolkein never stated that Pelargir is a huge triangle.....all he said was that it was inspired by Venice. Also, in Gondor at least, there was a HUGE army. I don't think it would've been that hard to defend the walls, large that they are. The only reason that the walls would've been cumbersome is when Gondor's army started to dwindle, leading up to the war of the ring. The walls were designed thousands if years before that, when the army was a much larger size.