About Pelargir

[Portalrules333]

Cool, because it wouldn't have been a whole city.

It would have been most of it, no matter how many straight houses you squeeze into the middle, many would have to be put on the edge, requiring the infamous diagonal build.

 

[Bombur8]

Could have been done like Osgo.

 

[DSESGH]

I suppose it's not really against any rules, but this discussion has become obscure. We are not going to use a triangle shape for Pelargir - everybody who wants a triangle shape is free to make their own Pelargir on freebuild. This thread could probably be locked if any bounders wish to do so.

 

[Bombur8]

Before closing, I have a question: why are there no walls here? Also, if no wall is added, I think the last tower should at least match the little cliff.

 

[Wodleth]

-snip-

We have a plan, just wait and see. It wont be open when we are done

 

[Bombur8]

Cool .

 

[kyzcool]

For me, My heart is broken with Pelargir. Given, that the design everyone brings up was created for a boardgame, however, It was probably the main design I was looking forward to the triangle deisign, the impressive design, and everything else which went with photo. I would even say that the look of pelargir was my favourite, even compared to minas tirith and osgiliath.

Given, the new design is well done, impressive and impressed from everyone great work put towards it, this brings a very old debate back to the forefront.

The server is going more in the image of Peter jackson's version. Even the new pelargir is nearly similar to the one in the extended version of the return of the King.

Given, I love the work everyone is doing, and top marks for everyone on the build team and the work put in. However, Couldn't we move towards the books a bit more and using the creativity of the server members, and being more experimental with the designs of other cities.

Well, I guess I can still look forward to edhellond.

p.s If you don't agree, thats cool, Its just I wanted to express my gutted opinion on the change in Pelargir.

 

[DSESGH]

For me, My heart is broken with Pelargir. Given, that the design everyone brings up was created for a boardgame, however, It was probably the main design I was looking forward to the triangle deisign, the impressive design, and everything else which went with photo. I would even say that the look of pelargir was my favourite, even compared to minas tirith and osgiliath.

Given, the new design is well done, impressive and impressed from everyone great work put towards it, this brings a very old debate back to the forefront.

The server is going more in the image of Peter jackson's version. Even the new pelargir is nearly similar to the one in the extended version of the return of the King.

Given, I love the work everyone is doing, and top marks for everyone on the build team and the work put in. However, Couldn't we move towards the books a bit more and using the creativity of the server members, and being more experimental with the designs of other cities.

Well, I guess I can still look forward to edhellond.

p.s If you don't agree, thats cool, Its just I wanted to express my gutted opinion on the change in Pelargir.

The conflict of what to base our builds on is definitely an old one, but it has been established that we base our builds off a combination of the books and movies. This would give Peter Jackson's version the "upper hand" over the board game version. Besides, I don't think the fact that it is the movie version was even taken into account; wod and cre just loved the layout.
Despite the fact that the layout itself may be similar to the movie, the concept is absolutely based on Tolkien's writings. If I'm not mistaken, after visiting Venice, he said that he imagined Pelargir looking something like that. Therefore, that is the idea we are going for.

Anyway, everyone will like Pelargir, even without the triangle concept. I, for one, was super excited for Ma5's Pelargir, but now I think the current layout/concept is the better one. Trust me, you'll like it

 

[kyzcool]

The conflict of what to base our builds on is definitely an old one, but it has been established that we base our builds off a combination of the books and movies. This would give Peter Jackson's version the "upper hand" over the board game version. Besides, I don't think the fact that it is the movie version was even taken into account; wod and cre just loved the layout.
Despite the fact that the layout itself may be similar to the movie, the concept is absolutely based on Tolkien's writings. If I'm not mistaken, after visiting Venice, he said that he imagined Pelargir looking something like that. Therefore, that is the idea we are going for.

Anyway, everyone will like Pelargir, even without the triangle concept. I, for one, was super excited for Ma5's Pelargir, but now I think the current layout/concept is the better one. Trust me, you'll like it

I hope so, at the moment, it looks like Tharbad 2.0, "Now without palace's"

#Truth Hurts

 

[Bombur8]

The design triangle design may not be the most realistic

Actually it's not even unrealistic because there were initially no triangle island. I posted an explanation earlier in this topic (page 3).

 

[MaDIIReD]

Please keep posts on the topic of Pelargir.
If you simply want to point out you agree with someone; we have a like button.

 

[rcpopcornman]

snip.

Actually, I mentioned it in my post. A perfect triangle is unrealistic but a triangle like shape is perfectly understandable. I was mentioning perfectly straight lines for the triangle, it would me more like straightish with rounded corners for the ground the walls could be straight but not the ground.

 

[Credoo]

@muteberlin @SenorOstrich47 @kyzcool I had no idea serious discussion where on the same lvl as insulting each other for more street "cred". I must have missed something. Saying your "truth" (opinion) is more "truth" (right) then someone else his truth (Opinion) is just a tad shallow minded in my opinion. Even if it was meant as a joke/banter.

Back on topic as much as I love a big discussion about in what geometric shape we do Pellargir at this stage of planning it has mostly been decided to go with a non triangular shape. But for the sake of this discussion I will go trough all the steps once more why I and others came to this decision.

As for lore (in)accuracy as far as i know Tolkien did not specifically say that Pellargir is triangular. The only thing what we could know about the shape is derived from the name "Pelargir means "Garth of Royal Ships." A garth is an enclosure or guarded place. The word pel means "go round, encircle." The element ar means "royal." The element gir is a form of kir meaning "cut, cleave" - used to mean ship as in cutter". That being said of course we could have chosen to create a triangular shaped island in the middle of the bay we made and still have that encircled wall around Pellargir.
Kind of the same idea Ma5termind had. The problem I have seen with his depiction of Pellargir was that it would have to become absolutely massive (if he wanted that encircling wall around it). The way he had it planned out it was going to be bigger then Osgiliath and Minas Tirith, Now that might have been fixed with making it a bit smaller. But the smaller you make the inner triangle the harder it becomes to build anything non diagonal on it this is a Minecraft problem.
Of course good looking diagonal buildings can be made and have been made by great builders. I paraphrase great there because it is difficult to say the least to make a diagonal building. But to make it look good requires a very keen eye and certain level of skill. Personally I can say that I can create a diagonal building but not one I will be satisfied with. That brings an issue one can say that I need to learn said skill to make a diagonal buildings that look good. However I don't know if am capable enough to train myself into creating esthetically pleasing diagonal buildings nor do I now if I have to time and patience for that.
That brings us to our next problem I have been building in this community for about 4 years and learned allot in the process, people who come on here for the first time did not have this experience but may have had other building experience on other servers or they have developed a certain talent. The majority however does not have the required skills to create good looking diagonal house. Some could learn it if they devote their time to it but most of us have lives besides Minecraft.

The current layout is nice but not only does it take advantage of mother nature. In fact, the harbor would be a pain to dig out and would break the defenses down by allowing a large opening to allow a large attacking force to get behind the defenses. Or if they could not get past the currents, easily sink their boats and trapping the ones in the harbor.

As far as I know the main threat comes from the south (Umbar) that is down stream. In our plan we hope to tackle that "threat" with creating a fortress on the southern bank (yes where the wall currently ends). As far as currents go wide rivers should not have that strong of a current when they get close to the ocean. We can only guess what kind of current is produced by the Anduin at the location of Pellargir or the current of the River Sirith that it crosses. If the current would have been to strong it would make no sense to build a city with a harbor there unless you got motorized boats. For the sake of convenience I think its safe to say the currents are not that strong.

This is not an ocean, the water only goes one way, baring a tsunami. In fact, building a harbor in the way that would have done so would cause very unpleasant currents at the mouth of the harbor and the hard port-ward tact upriver with those currents would be a nightmare. So if the fleet got caught out, a captain could very easily crash causing another hazard in the mouth of the harbor.

Again I don't know how strong the current is of either river but it would make less sense to me to build the harbor on the river shore instead of in a artificial bay (the whole reason behind creating that current breaker(golf breker for the dutchies among us )). Yes the chance of ships crashing into each other is always present. However it will be even more present when having a triangular shaped island in the middle of the bay let alone the currents that may or may not produce.

There is little known about Pelargir, so why don't we do something awesome and not just trying to quickly finish

This is very opinionated and not really factual. There is never a deadline for a project nor will there be so there is no pressure to finish something quickly nor any intention. I believe creating the city in the way we are creating is will be awesome and not just the easiest or quickest way. However a counter argument may be not making it diagonal is going for the easy quick way I certainly do not see it this way. We always try our best when creating a build saying we are rushing it or taking the easy way out shows little respect for the effort we make.

That brings me to the next part of the topic. Bombur I never intended to shut you or anyone down when it comes to creativity or opinions. If you (and/or others) felt it that way I apologize it was not my intention. I merely said what I said because at some point we have to decide what design we take and just go with it. This time we went with a layout that you (and maybe others) did not like. I can assure you will do our best to make it look as good as we can trust me in that. Lets say in 3 years when you might be in charge of a Pellargir project you can decide what way to go and make it triangular or any other shape you wish. I will respect that then and support you. All I ask from you (and others) now is to respect our decision on the layout and if you can lay aside your opinions and concerns, support us in creating a wonderful city of Pellargir since that's what brought us all to the server to build middle earth.

It is hard to make decisions like this and I shall never say my decisions are the right ones only time will tell. I aint here to please everyone because that is impossible I'm here to make sure middle earth gets build in the (my opinion) best way possible. We can always argue and debate topics such as these (and I do enjoy them from time to time) but in the end we have to start somewhere otherwise nothing gets done. And hey if we don't like it in the end we might redo it one day just like Bree .

TLDR: Decision was made on the layout and will remain the same (for now). Diagonal buildings are hard to make. No real measurement of how strong currents are just theory crafting. Fortifications will be made. Never intended to shut anyone down. Never intended to quickly finish Pelargir or to take the easy route. Decisions like these are hard and might be revisited in due time but please try to respect them.

 

[JordD04]

I must say I'm incredibly suprised at the decision to not use a triangle, it seems like a decision that I'd expect to see from the likes of The Valar Project. On numerous occasions I've pushed for lore accurate builds and I was repeatedly told "we're not doing that because it's not what people expect to see" yet now we come to Pelargir and we're completely ignoring an incredibly famous design feature even if it's not specifically in the lore. It's comparable to buidling Isengard without an Orthanc, or a flat Minas Tirith. People will come to Pelargir looking for the famous triangle in the centre and it sadens me that it's being skipped out simply because it's considered to be too much of a hassle to implement.

Also, the textures for the walls for Pelargir need work. They look like the're made from Sandstone and as far as I'm away pelargir wasn't built by the ancient egyptians.
I'd recommend something more orange in colour like the Aurelian walls

You're much better off looking at Rome or Greece for Gondorian architecture, not Egypt or the Middle-East.

-Jord

 

[JordD04]

-snip-

I believe I'm correct in saying that I believe the concern isn't that the build wont be good (people are familiar with your work and know that you'll produce a good product) the concern is that it wont BE pelargir and it will be "Generic Coastal City".

 

[Credoo]

I believe I'm correct in saying that I believe the concern isn't that the build wont be good (people are familiar with your work and know that you'll produce a good product) the concern is that it wont BE pelargir and it will be "Generic Coastal City".

Making it triangular wont make it a generic coastal city? I is turning into a debate of taste neither side is right or wrong. I do not like a triangular port city. This aint Riverrun(GoT fans yay). Some rpg project made a triangular design and now you guys who usually fight for lore and don't care about looks defend an layout that in my eyes is not only impractical but also not pleasing for the eye. You can use arguments like this aint Egypt and such but Mediterranean city's used sandstone just as their eastern counter parts did. If this truly is a battle about taste I wont win this but neither will you. You either like it or you don't. Time will tell what will happen when we finish this version maybe you will like it and I wont or we all like it or no one does etc.. Luckily for you nothing ever last more then 3 years on this server before it gets either revamped or redone.

 

[Fornad]

You're much better off looking at Rome or Greece for Gondorian architecture, not Egypt or the Middle-East.

Lore-wise, that's not exactly true - saying that Gondor definitively should resemble Rome or Greece is a misconception from the films. Letter 211:

"The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled ‘Egyptians’ – the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in ‘theology’ : in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan…) I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but at an angle. The N. Kingdom had only a diadem the difference between the N. and S. kingdoms of Egypt."

 

[Bombur8]

Kind of the same idea Ma5termind had. The problem I have seen with his depiction of Pellargir was that it would have to become absolutely massive (if he wanted that encircling wall around it). The way he had it planned out it was going to be bigger then Osgiliath and Minas Tirith

But the smaller you make the inner triangle the harder it becomes to build anything non diagonal on it this is a Minecraft problem.
Of course good looking diagonal buildings can be made and have been made by great builders. I paraphrase great there because it is difficult to say the least to make a diagonal building. But to make it look good requires a very keen eye and certain level of skill. Personally I can say that I can create a diagonal building but not one I will be satisfied with. That brings an issue one can say that I need to learn said skill to make a diagonal buildings that look good. However I don't know if am capable enough to train myself into creating esthetically pleasing diagonal buildings nor do I now if I have to time and patience for that.

If you take one of the two half Ogsiliath, it's not that big, it's round and it doesn't need diagonal buildings.

However it will be even more present when having a triangular shaped island in the middle of the bay let alone the currents that may or may not produce.

Our cities are not size 1:1, and the landscapes even less. So with a real triangle-in-circle Pealrgir there wouldn't be any problem because the river would be very large at this point. And with a Minecraft one, we just would have to build proportionally less ships than with the real-one. And, unlike I have seen earlier in this topic, diagonal boats wouldn't be needed because the river itself is actually straight at this point.

I merely said what I said because at some point we have to decide what design we take and just go with it.

The triangle shape had actually also been decided at some point.

saying that Gondor definitively should resemble Rome or Greece is a misconception from the films.

I does not come from the films. I don't see any roman/greek-like building in the movies.

 

[Will_em]

Fornad do you have a source link of those letters? It might come in handy on other stuff and for my list of bookmarks.

 

[Fornad]

Fornad do you have a source link of those letters? It might come in handy on other stuff and for my list of bookmarks.

http://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/139008/The_Letters_of_J.RRTolkien.pdf