Moria - Stage 2: Idea collecting and fine planning

[Despot666]

Please do not discuss about stairs/chasm - it's has been already analysed and decided. You will see when time comes. Also - stairsl ocation is removed from model <buehehehehe>.

 

[B_n]

.....I think I'll take the stairs, thanks.....

Heh.. new OB destinations: Find, and take the endless stair to the top.

 

[Antimattergizmo]

To bring it back around, I saw there was a particular water transport method built to circle a chamber that I can only hope means a new and improved Moria Theme Park ride.

Also, what are the plans to represent Mithril? Will some of the deeps have the raw ore? The fellowship finds some unplundered Moria Silver at one point, but I would think orcs would know enough about the stuff that they would plunder the loose forms. Maybe have it like the glittering caverns and let it emit a very low light level perhaps at the bottom of a flooded chamber?

 

[Ardelenia]

Also, what are the plans to represent Mithril? Will some of the deeps have the raw ore? The fellowship finds some unplundered Moria Silver at one point, but I would think orcs would know enough about the stuff that they would plunder the loose forms. Maybe have it like the glittering caverns and let it emit a very low light level perhaps at the bottom of a flooded chamber?

I will make two suggestions although I do not know how much @Despot666 has already made for the texture pack.
Maybe make mithril redstone ore, so that it glows a little like gizmo suggested?
Also, for ores, could we please revise the textures currently in all the other packs? With the current textures, the ore is like a circle of actual material surrounded by stone. Thus when you put multiple ore blocks together to form a vein of ore it doesn't look good because each little piece of metal is isolated from each other. We should have ore more spread out over the face of the block.

 

[Antimattergizmo]

Is there any chance some connected textures could be made for ore veins? I know how the open accessibility rule goes in terms of mods, but doesn't almost everyone use Optifine for the Resource Packs (which has connected textures). Maybe to help the base texture would work repeating, but work better with connected textures. Just do long as the experience is not hurt for those that are without.

 

[Despot666]

Vanilla does not have connected textures. It has random ones and these will be used <alternate textures>.

Ore veins have been already textured. I will psot details/missing textures next week.

 

[marojus]

And, as you might have guessed, an actual Balrog would be cool too...

You mean hot, right? Not cool...

 

[FireFuss]

Please do not discuss about stairs/chasm - it's has been already analysed and decided. You will see when time comes. Also - stairsl ocation is removed from model <buehehehehe>.

Rules schmules!

I've seen the model and know how the entirety of Moria is spread out between 3 separate "worlds" vertically. I imagine there will be doors on each part of the endless stair to access their respective parts/levels of Moria. What I hope to contribute, (if the powers that be didnt already discuss it) would to add in dummy sections between levels. This could be accomplished on the same "level" as the particular sections of the map only they would have no doors or access to Moria itself.

The idea is like this...

The 3 "levels" of the entirety of Moria are the black boxes, the stair are represented by the green boxes. The red arrows designate the teleports. The thin blue lines separate the "levels". Though stairs 2 and 3 could be together on the same level as the 1st stair section inside of Moria, only section 1 allows access to Moria proper. Again with sections 5 and 6. 4 would actually access the map, while 5 and 6 are there to make people go "Whoa, endless is RIGHT!". The same goes for the others sections of stair all the way to Durin's Tower.

So in the end, you could climb over 2000 blocks high worth of stairs rather than just the 768 that would come with three 256 block high sections.

/rule breaking

 

[Bombur8]

I don't think it's a good idea since the "normal" corridors between stairs would have an implicit non existent section. I made pictures to explain:

Current situation:

If you apply your idea:

 

[FireFuss]

...

If the endless stair is nowhere near any other portion of the map that connects the 3 levels together it wouldn't be too much of a problem.....

Also,

I hate you

 

[Lady_of_Rohan]

Also,

I hate you

Please don’t feel wretched @Bombur8, he’s mean. I love you <3

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

I'm glad I get to help take on Moria for the first project I've ever done!

 

[DSESGH]

I'm glad I get to help take on Moria for the first project I've ever done!

Did you get pc minecraft yet?

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

As for ideas, if the Balrog's lair was built at all, it would be cool to see mass destruction both in it and the route he would have taken to escape upwards. As we all know, Balrogs aren't exactly respectful of other people's property. (And, as you might have guessed, an actual Balrog would be cool too.....unless they are all derpy)

That would mess quite a bit with the time frame we are aiming to recreate middle earth. We build middle earth to how it was during the time of Bilbo's birthday. And the balrog was most likely in a deep slumber (or minding his own business whatever balrogs do in deep caves) at that time. He awoke by the presence of the fellowship when they went trough Moria and climbed his way up.

Something tells me that the Balrog didn't just stay in the same spot when the dwarves first woke him up. Check out this quote from Tolkein gateway: "The creature wreaked dreadful destruction, and in slaying the King, became known as Durin's Bane." At the very least, I think that there should be a few more annihilated areas in the lower deeps.

I'm afraid I have to contradict you there dear fish, the Balrog was awaken in 1980 T.A. and what we know is, that he slew Durin VI. and one year later Náin I. Assuming that none of these two were complete fools and went down into the mithril caves again and/or even searched for the Balrog, we can be pretty sure that already there the Balrog entered Moria.
So to @Portalrules333: Yes, that seems very reasonable.

-----------------

Despot, I love you!
A cheese dairy? in Moria?
All my dreams are coming true! Thank you! I love you! Thanks for 1000 times!!!!!!!!!!!!

Making this official: I want to give the cheese dairy to be built by TSG, you can start with it as soon as the RP is out (on Plotworld if the moria world isnt ready then yet). @Despot666: TS requested a cheese / cheese wheel (=entire cheese) texture, you've got a spare block?

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What are those bright yellow-greenish parts?

Mostly they mark a kind of placeholder for a more complex structure; e.g. a series of caves that in the model has just been simplified to a general area, but the use of it varies, you best check it out yourself.

-----------------

An album of cool references i put together for... other reasons...
Anyways. Hope it inspires. A lot of the images are from Dragon Age, a game which i think has captured dwarven architecture really well.

Thanks a ton for that collection glov! we'll definitely use many of them for some of the halls, cuz there are tons of them.

----------------------

Forgot to ask in my previous post. Considering a few features you plan to implement are 1.8, what are the plans to update the server?

I am not that experienced with the technical stuff behind the scenes, but in the future Spigot may well be the way to go. Some information is >>here<<. However in the end those things can only be decided by @q220, and as he well was aware of that Moria will need 1.8 commands and he never warned us about that that may be a problem, we hope that q too is optimistic that the server will eventually update.

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NOTE: this is my opinion and whether or not you take it into consideration is up to you.

Finally got a chance to fly through, and I noted that for the palace it said "Pyke like" from GoT. although I am completely up for that style choice we ought to at least make it it's own unique thing, just using pyke as a style base.

Sounds and looks great! Haven't talked to Des about that yet, but I would wholly support that idea.

I believe we can already use 3d models main as long as everybody is using 1.8

Yes, the 3D models work on both main and freebuild server if you join with 1.8, however we cant use the new 1.8 blocks or commands yet. We will need/use those blocks for Erebor and Gundabad.

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@Eaglz and @HeartseekerDK did a Iron Hills "preview" build in the Freebuild server (/warp Iron Hills). Who knows, it might inspire some of you guys for some parts of Moria.

Checked it out, I think we may do something similar in the western dwelling area as entrance to the hall of justice. (Added it to the model, maybe you'll even find it )

---------------

Are my eyes deceiving me? Or do I see diagonal blocks.....

No....my eyes perceive this miracle as well.

There are many kinds of diagonal blocks in the new pack:

-------------------------

I wanted to put in my advice for New Moria. Moria is a Kingdom of vibrancy and splendor. It is easily the most beautiful place in Middle Earth. We need to show this. We need to make it have as much personality as Gondor. I always hated Old Moria because it lacked this. Houses were cold with no emotion, like no one lived there and cared for it. Also in the old map Moria wasn't really a city. A few houses were put together but very few. This isn't just a city, it is a Kingdom. It is just like Rohan or Gondor just in a new fashion. We need more houses and less cold never ending halls. Also these are peoples homes. They put there heart and sole into creating it. They tried to express themselves. We need to capture a race, there ideals and customs.

I'd say both despot and me were having that in the backs of our heads all the time, but its a good reminder. Couldn't have said it better myself, that's exactly what we want!

-------------------------

-snip-

What factors could have ruined Moria:
- Goblins/Orcs: Regarding time: The Balrog awoke in 1980 T.A., for 500 years he dwelt alone there, from around 2500 onwards Orcs gather around the Balrog.
Much is not known, but for that part the most important thing to me is: Even Orcs do not spend all their time going through Moria and purposely destroy massive stone structures, and I think they did not settle in entire Moria, maybe not even explore all of it. One astonishingly simple argument: If they would have reached the west gate, wouldnt they have opened it (aka destroying it as i dont think they can read elvish), and used it to invade Eriador?

- Balrog: Yes it may well be that a semi-god (as that's what a Balrog is) can and does do some massive damage. But I could imagine that for him there was no use in trying to get through every dwarf-sized corridor by blowing up half the mountain for that. I think he mainly stayed in the lowest halls and the caves below them. We kinda have to answer the question what a Balrog does all day long, I have no idea tbh.

- Time / Weather / War: So many cities have been ruined by these factors, but merely none of them apply to Moria. Beside in front of the East gate, there's no known war in Moria. For the Time/Weather part: In Moria there is no river that could go over its shores as in Tharbad (and even if, it would only affect small parts of Moria), theres no wind that could carry sand and similar with it and abrade the structures. Theres no rain, theres no big temperature differences. The mountain peaks above Moria get ruined a ton more heavily than any of the structures below it.
One thing there may be: The moving of tectonic plates. That may cause some crevices and similar to appear.

Conclusion: In my opionion there should be unaltered and unruined parts of Moria, mainly towards the West Gate.

------------------------

To bring it back around, I saw there was a particular water transport method built to circle a chamber that I can only hope means a new and improved Moria Theme Park ride.

Also, what are the plans to represent Mithril? Will some of the deeps have the raw ore? The fellowship finds some unplundered Moria Silver at one point, but I would think orcs would know enough about the stuff that they would plunder the loose forms. Maybe have it like the glittering caverns and let it emit a very low light level perhaps at the bottom of a flooded chamber?

We havent talked about the water slide yet, but as it actually is just a water transporting device it may well have a comeback in multiple locations. Even more, the new Chamber of Light will be so massive that you could easily fit an entire amusement park into it.


Diamond ore is used for mithril ore. There will be mithril mines (with some yet unmined mithril)

---------------------------------

-snip-

Despot and I have made up our mind on that quite some time ago, there's no more use to discuss on that . But you can be reassured: We took the solution of maximum realism and awesomeness.


So, I hope I answered all the leftover questions now, keep asking and keep suggesting!

 

[Top_Gun]

Any chance of leaving a few smaller caverns for a good ol'-fashioned digging job?

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

Any chance of leaving a few smaller caverns for a good ol'-fashioned digging job?

sure thing
@Despot666 dont WE everything yet

 

[Bombur8]

If they would have reached the west gate, wouldnt they have opened it (aka destroying it as i dont think they can read elvish), and used it to invade Eriador?

I think that after 1000 years, they at least explored all of the main parts of the Moria, and the East Gate belongs to them. And after all they never invaded Rhovanion, so why Eriador?

 

[ProjectXMark1]

A bit off-topic, but:
If we can get the teleportation system working, would it be possible to fix the anachronism of Isengard not being corrupted by having everything teleported off somewhere?

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

A bit off-topic, but:
If we can get the teleportation system working, would it be possible to fix the anachronism of Isengard not being corrupted by having everything teleported off somewhere?

That would not work, we still have only 256 blocks height, you of course could make a teleport to some underground area of Isengard, but from outside, you'd just see 3 block deep holes around Orthanc which would look really silly.

 

[Portalrules333]

I'm afraid I have to contradict you there dear fish, the Balrog was awaken in 1980 T.A. and what we know is, that he slew Durin VI. and one year later Náin I. Assuming that none of these two were complete fools and went down into the mithril caves again and/or even searched for the Balrog, we can be pretty sure that already there the Balrog entered Moria.
So to @Portalrules333: Yes, that seems very reasonable.

-----------------


Making this official: I want to give the cheese dairy to be built by TSG, you can start with it as soon as the RP is out (on Plotworld if the moria world isnt ready then yet). @Despot666: TS requested a cheese / cheese wheel (=entire cheese) texture, you've got a spare block?

-------------------


Mostly they mark a kind of placeholder for a more complex structure; e.g. a series of caves that in the model has just been simplified to a general area, but the use of it varies, you best check it out yourself.

-----------------


Thanks a ton for that collection glov! we'll definitely use many of them for some of the halls, cuz there are tons of them.

----------------------


I am not that experienced with the technical stuff behind the scenes, but in the future Spigot may well be the way to go. Some information is >>here<<. However in the end those things can only be decided by @q220, and as he well was aware of that Moria will need 1.8 commands and he never warned us about that that may be a problem, we hope that q too is optimistic that the server will eventually update.

-----------------


Sounds and looks great! Haven't talked to Des about that yet, but I would wholly support that idea.


Yes, the 3D models work on both main and freebuild server if you join with 1.8, however we cant use the new 1.8 blocks or commands yet. We will need/use those blocks for Erebor and Gundabad.

-----------------



Checked it out, I think we may do something similar in the western dwelling area as entrance to the hall of justice. (Added it to the model, maybe you'll even find it )

---------------




There are many kinds of diagonal blocks in the new pack:

-------------------------



I'd say both despot and me were having that in the backs of our heads all the time, but its a good reminder. Couldn't have said it better myself, that's exactly what we want!

-------------------------


What factors could have ruined Moria:
- Goblins/Orcs: Regarding time: The Balrog awoke in 1980 T.A., for 500 years he dwelt alone there, from around 2500 onwards Orcs gather around the Balrog.
Much is not known, but for that part the most important thing to me is: Even Orcs do not spend all their time going through Moria and purposely destroy massive stone structures, and I think they did not settle in entire Moria, maybe not even explore all of it. One astonishingly simple argument: If they would have reached the west gate, wouldnt they have opened it (aka destroying it as i dont think they can read elvish), and used it to invade Eriador?

- Balrog: Yes it may well be that a semi-god (as that's what a Balrog is) can and does do some massive damage. But I could imagine that for him there was no use in trying to get through every dwarf-sized corridor by blowing up half the mountain for that. I think he mainly stayed in the lowest halls and the caves below them. We kinda have to answer the question what a Balrog does all day long, I have no idea tbh.

- Time / Weather / War: So many cities have been ruined by these factors, but merely none of them apply to Moria. Beside in front of the East gate, there's no known war in Moria. For the Time/Weather part: In Moria there is no river that could go over its shores as in Tharbad (and even if, it would only affect small parts of Moria), theres no wind that could carry sand and similar with it and abrade the structures. Theres no rain, theres no big temperature differences. The mountain peaks above Moria get ruined a ton more heavily than any of the structures below it.
One thing there may be: The moving of tectonic plates. That may cause some crevices and similar to appear.

Conclusion: In my opionion there should be unaltered and unruined parts of Moria, mainly towards the West Gate.

------------------------



We havent talked about the water slide yet, but as it actually is just a water transporting device it may well have a comeback in multiple locations. Even more, the new Chamber of Light will be so massive that you could easily fit an entire amusement park into it.


Diamond ore is used for mithril ore. There will be mithril mines (with some yet unmined mithril)

---------------------------------


Despot and I have made up our mind on that quite some time ago, there's no more use to discuss on that . But you can be reassured: We took the solution of maximum realism and awesomeness.


So, I hope I answered all the leftover questions now, keep asking and keep suggesting!

How many times bigger will the New Chamber of Light be than the old one, do you think?