Moria - Stage 2: Idea collecting and fine planning

[Beathaven]

Durin's tower/endless stairs

Considering the height of the actual misties, it might be an idea to build as much of the Endless Stairs in "world" before in teleports you to "moria" where it might become a larger room. Aside from this, the placement of the different heights of Moria, does not nessecarily mean they will be on top of each other in that sense, and thus less teleporting is needed to connect the different levels to the Endless Stairs.

Canals

An altered flow of water, the dwarves with their high technical skills would be able to do that, is still really handy to transport stuff. Put it in a boat, and off it goes. Water physics don't change in a cave.

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

Durin's tower/endless stairs

Considering the height of the actual misties, it might be an idea to build as much of the Endless Stairs in "world" before in teleports you to "moria" where it might become a larger room.

That would of course be possible, although it would not change much I think, except we really want to bring the total length of the stairs to a truly unbearable value by also using up all the height on the Build world.

Aside from this, the placement of the different heights of Moria, does not nessecarily mean they will be on top of each other in that sense, and thus less teleporting is needed to connect the different levels to the Endless Stairs.

I must admit that I wasnt able to thoroughly follow your argumentation, however the stair segments will simply be actually part of the 3 Moria levels, so no teleporting between stairs and the rest of Moria, a normal corridor will make the connections there (should also be visible in the Moria model at /warp Moriamap on Freebuild, watch out for some stacked vertical pillars)

Canals

An altered flow of water, the dwarves with their high technical skills would be able to do that, is still really handy to transport stuff. Put it in a boat, and off it goes. Water physics don't change in a cave.

That is indeed an interesting idea we have not considered yet; however we did already consider some kind of mule/goat/pony system (whatever in the end it shall be) for the transportation needs.
Calling realism ("water physics") you also have to consider that the water has to come from somewhere; larger streams where a boat may fit into dont seem realistic to me simply because on a mountain only some thawing snow, rain water and some very young and small rivers are available as water source; the only thing imaginable would be "grasping" entire rivers like the Silverlode from the surface and lead them into the lower half of Moria (the 7 deeps), still then the water has to go somewhere; it can't just simply dissapear somewhere in the caves (unless you want to flood Moria at some point), and Middle-Earth hasn't got a void as in minecraft

 

[Bombur8]

I disagree with your last paragraph. You can have large underground rivers, you only need big caves (which Moria has plenty). Here are some picture of real ones:

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

I disagree with your last paragraph. You can have large underground rivers, you only need big caves (which Moria have plenty). Here are some picture of real ones:

Alright that's a good point, underground lakes, but, and sorry that I'm so nasty here and sorry that I paid way too much attention at school,

• Underground lakes you can't modify that much to really make it a useable transportation system as the amount of water is kinda limited (see below why), beside that, editing a lake IRL is a rather hard task, even with advanced technology.
  What could really be a thing, and would look awesome, would be a large cave with lake and boats are simply needed to get across the lake.
• All pictures you posted above are so-called flowstone-caves, you most-likely heard of that before; Such caves only form if the stone is permeabel to water; however the Atlas arguments with the assumption of that the Misties were of a cristalline material, so one that has once been molten, such rock types are usually not waterpermeabel. Even if the criterions for a flowstone cave were given, the only water that goes in there is rain water that gets through the rocks (thus the above thing), and these lakes are not caused by big resp. useable amount of flowing water.

Long story short: I think we can do such a lake-cavern which will require boats (maybe even make two small settlements on each side), but artificial water canals for transport seem rather hard to realise within real world geography and physics.

 

[Bombur8]

underground lakes

As I said, those are rivers, not lakes.

And for the quantity, I'm not saying we should make an entire network of them, but one or two would be cool .

Plus it can also be streamless channels, which are basically very long and thin lakes.

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

As I said, those are rivers, not lakes.

And for the quantity, I'm not saying we should make an entire network of them, but one or two would be cool .

Plus it can also be streamless channels, which are basically very long and thin lakes.

Hmm okay I assume these rivers are just ones that go underground at some spot and then come out of the mountain a few kilometres later, we actually have something like that in Switzerland (>>Link<<), that would maybe be possible for the levels of Moria. The very long and thin lake thing may be considered, if i remember correctly we'd even have a matching cave in the western half.

 

[Bombur8]

I assume these rivers are just ones that go underground at some spot and then come out of the mountain a few kilometres later,

Yes, that's it. The first picture is actually in Belgium and I already went there. And we even already have one on the server .

Something bother me with the bridge of Khazad-dûm: trade. The bridge is too thin to allow the passage of enough goods for the huge kingdom the Moria is. I think we should add another way to enter the Moria for horses, carts, etc., and this need to be done without altering the defense system. I have an idea for that : we should add a way that goes around the chasm and descends at the same time to finish on a square below the 1st Hall. Then, some cranes with large trays could be added to lift merchandises, carts, animals or whatever.
I made a plan (scale isn't exact of course) :

 

[Portalrules333]

Hmm okay I assume these rivers are just ones that go underground at some spot and then come out of the mountain a few kilometres later, we actually have something like that in Switzerland (>>Link<<), that would maybe be possible for the levels of Moria. The very long and thin lake thing may be considered, if i remember correctly we'd even have a matching cave in the western half.

This water transport lake system thing may work for the upper "levels" and a few of the deeps, but by the time you get to the very bottom deeps of Moria, the lakes would really have no way of draining back up to the surface. I think the deepest an underground lake can get is a few hundred to a thousand feet or so. (And I'm pretty sure Moria goes down farther than this)

Also, you would think that some of the dwarves would have mentioned this transport system. (Particularly Gimli, considering how much he brags about Moria in the first book/movie)

 

[Ardelenia]

This water transport lake system thing may work for the upper "levels" and a few of the deeps, but by the time you get to the very bottom deeps of Moria, the lakes would really have no way of draining back up to the surface. I think the deepest an underground lake can get is a few hundred to a thousand feet or so. (And I'm pretty sure Moria goes down farther than this)

Also, you would think that some of the dwarves would have mentioned this transport system. (Particularly Gimli, considering how much he brags about Moria in the first book/movie)

I agree that natural water systems cannot go very far down, although we could have a part that did go deeper and therefore is flooded. I disagree with your second thing; just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it's not there; in fact, if we only went by what was mentioned we would have a really boring and un-detailed moria.

 

[SKy_the_Thunder]

What is mentioned however is, that the deepest caves of Moria - where the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog takes them - are flooded.
I leave it up to you if that means the water can't escape Moria and the small amount that ever entered just accumulated there over time, or if that's the place it constantly seeps away and forms the groundwater of surrounding areas...

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

Something bother me with the bridge of Khazad-dûm: trade. The bridge is too thin to allow the passage of enough goods for the huge kingdom the Moria is. I think we should add another way to enter the Moria for horses, carts, etc., and this need to be done without altering the defense system. I have an idea for that : we should add a way that goes around the chasm and descends at the same time to finish on a square below the 1st Hall. Then, some cranes with large trays could be added to lift merchandises, carts, animals or whatever.
I made a plan (scale isn't exact of course) :

I see, and agree, that this a problem. Practical thinking I guess in this situation you rather have to argument with the same reasoning as with why authors never write about their characters taking a dump, because noone cares, and here especially, it's just way cooler to have such a bridge than a 10 meters wide one. However I do agree that we have to consider a solution there, which would not outlore the bridge's defense strategy.
Your solution could be a start, but it would not work out yet; the crane design really has to be invasion-proof. Additionally we would have to make sure its really impossible to climb the cave walls next to the crane.

 

[Bombur8]

The crane is invasion-proof ... You just have to lift the tray. Even if the invaders can make it fall, they won't be able to relift it since all the mechanisms are in the First Hall (as for a portcullis). And at worst, it's just wood, the defenders could easily broke or burn it.

Additionally we would have to make sure its really impossible to climb the cave walls next to the crane.

I agree, but I think it's easily feasible . Plus the server have (sadly) plenty nonsensical wall-mountain/hill connections (Rammas Echor, Minas Tirith, Annúminas, inner fortress of Osgiliath, etc., and, worst of all, Isengard).

 

[Top_Gun]

I always figured that the Dwarves would just have to schlep everything over the Bridge themselves. Gave them something to do, right?

 

[Bombur8]

That would be very impratical. The Dwarves are diligent, hard-working and obstinate, not stupid. Plus the bridge is so thin that it could be dangerous.

 

[Seafroggys]

Didn't they mostly trade with Eregion, rather than Lothlorien anyway? That means that trade probably happened more through the West Door, rather than the East Door. So the Bridge of Khazad Dum probably wasn't used all that much for trade.

 

[Bombur8]

The Moria was firstly digged from the East, so, for a while, there was no trade at all with the West. Furthermore, there are a lot of peoples in the East, not just the Galadhrim, and I think it's the best way to buy wood (which is always needed). And finally, Eregion rose thousands of years after Khazad-dûm and collapsed three hundred before, so Khazad-dûm existed without Eregion during two very long periods.

 

[Portalrules333]

I agree that natural water systems cannot go very far down, although we could have a part that did go deeper and therefore is flooded. I disagree with your second thing; just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it's not there; in fact, if we only went by what was mentioned we would have a really boring and un-detailed moria.

I agree that we must add lots of necessary creative content to Moria, but most of them are small things, like special rooms and different designs. A massive water transport system wouldn't have been forgotten by the dwarves I would think, even after a few hundred years.

 

[Ardelenia]

I agree that we must add lots of necessary creative content to Moria, but most of them are small things, like special rooms and different designs. A massive water transport system wouldn't have been forgotten by the dwarves I would think, even after a few hundred years.

Okay, but I don't think that the (relatively to the entire universe) small glimpses we get into dwarven things (songs, memories, whatever) are indicative of the entire knowledge of the race. Remember that in applying the visions of tolkien, peter jackson (don't try to deny it :/ ), and others to a new medium we are forming our own creation. I am of the "as long as it isn't directly against any lore" camp.
Also some of our disagreement might spring from the lack of clarity anywhere regarding the size of the system. I wasn't imagining something for which I would use the word "massive".

 

[Portalrules333]

Okay, but I don't think that the (relatively to the entire universe) small glimpses we get into dwarven things (songs, memories, whatever) are indicative of the entire knowledge of the race. Remember that in applying the visions of tolkien, peter jackson (don't try to deny it :/ ), and others to a new medium we are forming our own creation. I am of the "as long as it isn't directly against any lore" camp.
Also some of our disagreement might spring from the lack of clarity anywhere regarding the size of the system. I wasn't imagining something for which I would use the word "massive".

Oh, if its just a thing linking a couple of key rooms in the east end sort of thing, then I'm all for it in that case.

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

I have been working on some stuff that you are talking about, just to get a look at how this will work. Note: these are NOT up to scale.

Moria Ideas

• Bilbo Baggins
• May 30, 2015