On the Osgiliath-Stone

[Finrod_Amandil]

I totally agree with jet, this stone may be carried along a small bit until it reaches the ground. then it does absolutely make sense that it disappeared in the surroundings just because if anyone would have found it and/or tried to lift it out (for what he'd needed a decent crane and thus could not really do it secretly) as, as far as i know its said that it ultimatively was lost.

 

[Bombur8]

It doesn't matter how big the Anduin is, the stone required multiple people to pick it up and move it. It's a massive, heavy rock. It wouldn't be carried far at all.

And,a s I said, Anduin is a massive river. But I do not say the stone HAVE BEEN carried away, just it could have. A still-in-th-town-stone works for me too .

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

Lol theres only one place on Earth where people argue that much about one stone xD
But thats why Im here, so dont dare you stop doing guys!

 

[Will_Slams]

And,a s I said, Anduin is a massive river. But I do not say the stone HAVE BEEN carried away, just it could have. A still-in-th-town-stone works for me too .

But my point is that it doesn't matter how massive the Anduin is. The stone is still heavy. The length/width/depth of the river does not affect the stone sinking.

 

[Tyranystrasz]

ok, let's speak about how the nature works:
1. Even a small river every year carry away tons of dirt/stone etc etc. imagine what the biggest river in Middle Earth can carry.
2. Even if it is a very heavy stone it should be (if i'm not mistaken) like a giant ball, so it will roll (like every stone)
3. more than 1 century has been passed, so no one knows where's the stone could be.

 

[Bombur8]

But my point is that it doesn't matter how massive the Anduin is. The stone is still heavy. The length/width/depth of the river does not affect the stone sinking.

I never said the stone had to be carried away before sinking.

 

[MaDIIReD]

Though a rivers size does matter when it comes to total displacement of stuff, what is more important in this situation is the strenght of the current. I'm no expert on the current strenght of the anduin but I'd assume it's not too extreme.
With it's weight and momentum the stone would reach the bottom of the river without too much horizontal displacement. Next question: is the riverbed muddy or rocky/solid. If muddy the stone would very quickly bury itself, if rocky the stone would slowly drift downstream.

 

[Portalrules333]

Though a rivers size does matter when it comes to total displacement of stuff, what is more important in this situation is the strenght of the current. I'm no expert on the current strenght of the anduin but I'd assume it's not too extreme.
With it's weight and momentum the stone would reach the bottom of the river without too much horizontal displacement. Next question: is the riverbed muddy or rocky/solid. If muddy the stone would very quickly bury itself, if rocky the stone would slowly drift downstream.

Seems to me that the Anduin would be more of a muddy river, the way we have the bottom built currently.
Also, I agree with you about the current, it always seemed like more of a gentle river to me at this point. I mean, still strong enough of course, just not rapid-like or extreme speed to it.

 

[Top_Gun]

Before we have to haul in an engineer here to discuss fluid dynamics, I still think the thing to keep in mind here is that the Stone was "lost," so having it plopped in the mud right next to the tower ruin wouldn't make too much sense. Now if we want to have it a little ways downriver, almost completely buried, that seems like it'd serve as a fun Easter egg.

 

[MaDIIReD]

Before we have to haul in an engineer here to discuss fluid dynamics

I have actually just started that subject Maybe in a month or two I can answer this question once and for all >

 

[Eriol_Eandur]

...is there a chance, that this palantir was simply destroyed during the attacks on osgiliath?...

It's very difficult if not impossible to destroy a palantir. For example Wormtongue throws a small palantir from an upper floor of Orthanc tower at Isengard aiming for Gandalfs head. He misses but when the palantir hits the stairs of orthanc. The stairs splintered whereas the palantir was completely undamaged. The stairs were made of the nearly indestructible black rock of orthanc which even the ents can not harm. However the wise assume that the palantir of Minas Ithil was destroyed in the lava of Oroduin during the fall of Barad-dûr.
The palantiri were a gift from the elves of Tol Eressea to the Lords of Andunie, the ancestors of Elendil. They were made by Feanor himself in Valinor during the Age of the Trees. They are probably the most acient pieces of craftsmanship in middleearth.

 

[Portalrules333]

i'm not that familiar with the lore regarding the palantiri, but is there a chance, that this palantir was simply destroyed during the attacks on osgiliath?
Because " the stone was lost" is ... well ...an interesting thing to say about a stone that needs half a dozen guys to lift it.

and is there still a chance to get a plot for the siege equipment?

No, it wasn't destroyed, the lore establishes that it was "lost in the river".

 

[Will_em]

Guys, are you seriously discussing where a stone is situated in a river?
I reached a discission here and if the lore says the palantir is lost, then it is lost. I will not put it in.

 

[Eriol_Eandur]

..an interesting thing to say about a stone that needs half a dozen guys to lift it.?

The smallest palantíri were a feet in diameter. Such a sphere with a density like diamond (3500 kg per cubic meter) would weight about 50 kg. This could be a bit heavy for Pippin, who picked up the Orthanc palantír. Thus I assume the density of the palantíri was less, possibly 2500 kg per cubic meter.
In the Unfinished Tales is written the Palantír of Osgiliath could not be lifted by one man. I haven't found anything about half a dozen guys. A Palantir of 200 kg would have a diameter of about 50 cm (density 2500 kg per cubic meter). Even a Palantír of 1000 kg would only be 90 cm in diameter.
I think it will be impossible to find such a small (relative to the river) object after nearly 1600 years. It dosn't matter how massive the river, how fast the current and how muddy the bottom is. Every river changes a lot in 1600 years.
By the way, it is COMPLETELY impossible to find a small golden ring in the same river more than 2400 years after it was lost and yet it happend.Therefore I think a Palantír in the Anduin would be a nice easter egg.

 

[Bombur8]

It is not imposible, just extremely improbable.

 

[Eriol_Eandur]

It is not imposible, just extremely improbable.

You are right of course. Impossible is what people say when they mean extremly improbable.

 

[Tan_J_a]

In the Unfinished Tales is written the Palantír of Osgiliath could not be lifted by one man. I haven't found anything about half a dozen guys.

sorry about that, i thought somehow somebody wrote five ..... but nobody did ..... i guess i need holidays

 

[Eriol_Eandur]

sorry about that, i thought somehow somebody wrote five ..... but nobody did ..... i guess i need holidays

No need to apologise. I think many people imagine the Osgiliath Palantír as a giant crystall ball. I was myself suprised how small a 1000 kg stone would be.

 

[Portalrules333]

Guys, are you seriously discussing where a stone is situated in a river?
I reached a discission here and if the lore says the palantir is lost, then it is lost. I will not put it in.

Sorry, Will, but I doubt that these guys are ever going to stop arguing about this......

 

[Portalrules333]

This topic has been hogging up the Osgiliath project thread, so I figured it would be easier to give it its own thread. The basis is pretty simple, just vote on the poll and possibly state your opinion in a post. If you don't get what I mean, check out the last few pages in the Osgiliath thread.

[NOTE: To the Enforcers, if you ever think that this discussion gets too heated or over analyzed, feel free to lock the thread]