Lore questions and answer

[JordD04]

Didn't all of the people of Middle-Earth also potentially forget Melkor after he was decapitated and imprisoned within the Void because of all of the evil he had done?

There would be Elves that knew of him. That's about it other than Orcs and maybe some Dunedain, Dragons of course, and Durins bane.

 

[Gimilzor]

I have a question. Khazad-dûm was founded during the year of the trees, but the dwarves awoke during the first age. My best guess is that Moria was created by Aulë for Durin to awake there when the time arrived. What are your thoughs about it?

 

[JordD04]

I have a question. Khazad-dûm was founded during the year of the trees, but the dwarves awoke during the first age. My best guess is that Moria was created by Aulë for Durin to awake there when the time arrived. What are your thoughs about it?

I'm pretty sure the Dwarves awoke before the first age. They would have been around not long after the elves. There may be sources saying otherwise but you should consider that Tolkien often changed his mind on things.

 

[djax74]

I think when Durin Deathless come to Khazad-dûm, there were already natural caves.

 

[Gimilzor]

I think when Durin Deathless come to Khazad-dûm, there were already natural caves.

Well, I have literally read "founded in the year of the trees". I think "founded" excludes it from being a natural cave.

 

[jhsmash13]

How and when did the Balrog get into Khazad-Dum?

 

[Indorilian]

How and when did the Balrog get into Khazad-Dum?

It likely escaped the war of wrath and hid from the Valar under the Misty Mountains.

 

[djax74]

Well, I have literally read "founded in the year of the trees". I think "founded" excludes it from being a natural cave.

Where did you read this ?

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

Where did you read this ?

Im not sure if this is explicitly mentioned, but Gandalf calls him "a demon from the ancient days" whereas ancient days mean First Age and assumingly as Balrogs could only be created by Melkor all of them fought in the Wars of Beleriand. If the Balrog really hides from the Valar in the caves of Moria or if he just looked for a nice gloomy place to dwell is rather unknown though as far as I know

 

[Gimilzor]

Where did you read this ?

Cant find it again, but I re-read the info and it looks like you were right, quoting tolkien gateway:"Durin settled in the caves above Kheled-zâram which later became the greatest of Dwarf realms, Khazad-dûm."

 

[Will_Slams]

Big question here:

Is Middle-Earth on another planet, Arda, or "was" it on the real Earth? I have gotten conflicting answers from all over the interwebs.

 

[Ardelenia]

I don't have a quote off hand to back this up (i believe there is support in one/some of the letters) but what i have always understood is that Arda is not Earth, but is crafted to be easily imaginable as a former state of our planet.

 

[Will_Slams]

But what gets me is in the introduction to the Fellowship, Tolkien says he journeyed through Middle-Earth himself. This was obviously just meant to say, "This story could be real" but that would also suggest that Middle-Earth is on Earth. But then lots of other sources say it's Arda.

Shall we just accept this as broken canon?

 

[Olwe]

Going to have to agree with Ardelenia here, i've read letters and notes that tolkein (and his son) wrote that describe middle earth as being our current world around 6000-10000 years ago.

 

[DSESGH]

I know Middle Earth loosely corresponds geographically to Europe, such as the Shire being similar architecturally and geographically to England, and Gondor being similar to Italy (I think). However, I'm not sure if Middle Earth was supposed to be a plausible "version" of Earth long ago. If I had to give an opinion, though, I'd say Middle Earth isn't supposed to be Earth. This is mostly because the land area of Middle Earth is significantly smaller than the land on Earth.

 

[Will_Slams]

I have noticed canon changes and general feeling between the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Maybe his original intent was for Middle-Earth to be on Earth, when he wrote the Hobbit, then changed it when he started on the Lord of the Rings, or when he jotted down that chunk of the Silmirillion?

 

[findekano]

*snip*.

More then just the land mass, I'm not sure how a land-locked area can be considered similar to England. I think that there are many parables of culture and some instances of common geography, but these were probably due more to the original purpose of the stories, which were told to his children, and that it would be nice to have such parables to give examples of Europe. For someone that enthusiastic about geography and maps, the land he would have created in such a case I feel would be more recognizable. The map in question is a general map for a fantasy land that doesn't want to focus on naval travel or warfare.

 

[findekano]

I have noticed canon changes and general feeling between the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Maybe his original intent was for Middle-Earth to be on Earth, when he wrote the Hobbit, then changed it when he started on the Lord of the Rings, or when he jotted down that chunk of the Silmirillion?

I find this unlikely, the copy of the hobbit I have contains maps, and unless all of the hobbit took place in England, then my previous post also applies here.

 

[Glov]

I have noticed canon changes and general feeling between the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Maybe his original intent was for Middle-Earth to be on Earth, when he wrote the Hobbit, then changed it when he started on the Lord of the Rings, or when he jotted down that chunk of the Silmarillion?

Well keep in mind that Tolkien wrote the Hobbit as a simple children's story. And then later decided to stay within that universe when writing the Lord of the rings. So he hadn't even really thought of the idea of "middle earth" when writing the hobbit.

As to the original question. Tolkien himself has talked about the possibility that Middle Earth was Earth ages ago, as arde and Zack said.

As to the geographic similarities people draw with Europe... Tolkien was heavily influenced by his time in WWI, and a lot of people like to draw connections between the War and Lotr. I'm not so sure about the geographic/cultural match ups, most of the connections I've seen have been a bit, meh. But, you know, its just theories.

Personally i'd much rather separate Middle Earth and our world, because that's why i so love fantasy, to escape from this world, and enter somewhere different.

EDIT:
And i think people place way to much emphasis on the connections between Middle Earth and the Real world, and should place more value on it as just literature. I mean, in Tolkien's analysis of Beowulf he said the very same thing. People shouldn't be looking for the real world in the poetry, they should be looking for the beauty in the writing.

 

[arcusthehero]

Tolkien's original intent was to write a mythology for his native land of England, as its ancestral myths had been lost with the numerous invasions throughout the Dark Ages. He therefore set out to make it himself, writing the Book of Lost Tales from the point of view of Aelfwine, a man from Anglia, who found himself in the isle across the western sea (many celtic myths contain the image of the magical fairy land across the western ocean, also many tribes of early men migrated west until they reached the ocean.) There he learned from the Gnomes and the Fairies the 'true' history of the world: the creation, the coming of the gods, the shaping of the world, the children of illuvatar, the wars of Artanor, and the prophecy of the Last Battle and the rekindling of the Magic Sun. Then, Aelfwine (called Eriol by the elves of the island) would eventually drink of the draught of magic Limpe to make him like an elf. Then Ingil the king of the Island began the Faring Forth, where the Hosts of Elves and Gnomes on Tol Eressea went forth to Middle Earth to save their lost kindred, and to vanquish the secret hosts of Melko, bringing an end to the sufferings of the world. However, the march was unsuccessful, and the island they had been ferried on was left anchored in the northern waters, becoming England (ireland was formed when they tried to return and a bit broke off) Thus the elves dwell in England more than any place else, and there men still retain their friendship with the elder race.

Now, after he started to revise the mythos, he left off telling the bits that connected it to real life, but still maintained the framework of Aelfwine the mariner. This framework persisted far into the later stages of his writing, i think even until or even after the time of lotr. The hobbit was written as a seperate story originally, but merged into the ME mythos. LotR was written to be a more fantasy story, written as an actual firsthand account of events, not merely as an analistic recording of psuedo-history. Thus, this framework for his mythology was not felt as keenly in the work.

In his final years, Tolkien inserted himself into the mythos, claiming to be a translator who has found the Red Book of Westmarch written in Westron, and had painstakingly translated it into English. Thus, it can be surmised that tolkien always intended ME to be our own world, but still in a mythological context, and an increasingly tenuous one as the mythos evolved.