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Curse You Peter Jackson!

To say that they (the films) are crap because they aren't 100% faithful to the books is absurd.

As Jord said, nobody's saying that. However:

Reading it, I remembered why I liked it in the first place. It was reassuring. You could tell by holding the book in your hands that there were many pages to go, many sights to see, many adventures to share. I cherished the way it paused for songs and poems, which the movie has no time for.

That is one of the most concise and well-written summaries of why I prefer the book to the films. There are limitations to the medium of film when it comes to being immersed in a huge and complex world that you simply don't have in literature, and even with twelve hours the films reveal only a fraction of what the thousand+ page book does.
 
Personally I cringe at discussion like this. Mainly because there is no thing to gain. I like the books allot and I like the movies allot. The power of a book is that it gives the reader to shape the world from his own imagination. The movies are that peter Jackson made are an interpretation of how it could have looked. How can someone possibly say that either the books are better or the movies or the other way around. There is no good or bad in this context, just a different interpretation.
I remember talking with a close friend after watching the first harry potter movie telling each other how we envisioned the quiddich stadium at Hogwarts very different then what was portrayed in the movies. I was 12 back then, but I understood that maybe JK Rowling meant it to be that way or the producers portrayed it that way. In any case it didn't matter I enjoyed there view of the fantasy world and loved it no less then my own imagination.

What i'm trying to get at is imagine if everyone only read the books and we tried to make stuff from it in minecraft our collective interpretation and someone from outside the community comes in and tells us this aint right because i envision it totally different? Who is wrong then? We because we made and interpreted it our own way using our imagination or that guy that had something entirely different in mind when he read the books. Well I guess you already know the answer that I had in mind :). No one is wrong.

To sum this up respect the work that is being done by people as Peter Jackson it is his (and his team's) interpretation it may differ from then what you had envisioned but that doesn't make one better of the other. Just as i would ask (new) players to respect the work we put into the server which are shaped and formed by both the books and the movies.

You can have your different view but respect others who do not share that view, I try to hold myself to that. So don't curse people who interpret stuff differently then you might have done.
 
Also its not like Chris Tolkein is the only one to bitch about a "crappy" (which is completely subjective and I think a terrible way to look at a good film) movie interpretation of his family's book... Im sure plenty of authors arent particularly thrilled with all the aspects of their film adaptation as many a times they will conflict with their own imagination of how the book played out. Plus given the amount of fandom that the movies have created along with the butt loads of cash, I wouldnt complain at all...
 
Many of you seem to forget how difficult it really is to make a movie, especially based off a book.
See, when you film a movie based on a book, no matter how amazing or precise that movie is, roughly 1/4 of the movie-goers will hate it anyway. If you try to make it exactly like the book word for word, everyone will hate it: those who loved the book and those who didn't read it; because (the following may blow your mind) films are an entirely separate- not even remotely the same, really- form of entertainment than a book is.
The very purpose of a book is to leave the story to the reader's own imagination. Authors usually achieve this through the use of sensory words and complex sentences. Every reader interprets what they read completely differently than everyone else. If you asked any two people to read a chapter from The Lord of the Rings and summarize it, no two answers will ever be the same.
Movies leave nothing to the imagination, all the information is put right there on the screen for you. The director's interpretation of the book can never conform to the audience's. Which brings me to the next point- the movie is there for people who haven't read the book, not you. Peter Jackson is very aware of the lore in LotR, which is why he changes it. In the case of Azog: sure Azog died at the battle of Azanulbazar, but where's the fun in that? Why would they introduce a character to have him last for a grand total of 30 seconds? Why not have him chase the Dwarves but ultimately to no avail? Certainly adds to the plot having him there, or did you want a movie where the only dangers were the trolls, goblin town, and Mirkwood? People who didn't read the book don't want it that boring.
Tauriel: While not necessary, she is also a tool used to improve the plot and the background lore. As we all know, the Elves of Mirkwood are by far the least friendly towards the Dwarves, but later years will require their cooperation. Sure we have Legolas and Gimli being blood brothers and all, but how would anyone else get word of this. If we have a Medium-ranked Elfling strengthening the bond between Elves and Dwarves it will make more sense why they would work together during the dark years, or have we forgotten the war in the north? Besides, it also adds to the character of Legolas making him seem like he cares about something besides... well... who knows what his motives are.
Dol Guldur with Gandalf, this is actually kind of important to the story-line. While it may not directly be in the Hobbit itself, it does happen and is one of the only things (if you never read the books) tying The Hobbit to Lord of the Rings, while at the same time making the tale notable for a reason other than Bilbo's finding of the ring. Again, it adds to the plot for those who didn't read the book. Who wants a 2.5 hour long movie with no sub-plots or explanations of Gandalf's doings?
 
We could discuss that for a long, especially about The Hobbit. I would say Peter Jackson wanted to transform a child story (it was), less dark than the LotR, in an epic action movie. Why ? Because it's making him more money, and many people don't want to understand that. If you don't believe me, just think why did he chose to make 3 movies ?
Nowadays, the most attractive movies are the ones with a lot action and fight. I mean, fights and special effects (don't sure that's the exact word) are most important than the story itself. I just don't understand that.
To conclude, Peter Jackson made an awesome work with The Lord of the Rings, but he wanted to make another success with The Hobbit. And most of time, when you make a film just for money, the result isn't always good.
 
imo, pi's becoming the smaug of hollywood :P. Thing is: hollywood knows which string to pull to make dem directors go absurdly off of the text. Pj haas even stated that he ENJOYS going off the text, so dat made me kinda mad, but maybe dat's my problem. Also, if people r mad at the SON of tolkien for being mad at the movies, i disagree completely. Imho, i don't blame chris :P. De movies aren't really a 'source of inspiration' as most people think. They just give people a source to copy on, and imho, Pj should have consulted chris and asked chris to help with the script.
 
Pj should have consulted chris and asked chris to help with the script.
This would have never happened. Christopher would, I imagine, have protested his father's sale of the movie rights from the start, given how he feels about the universe in general and how it is viewed by the outside world. To think that he would have collaborated on a huge blockbuster of a movie? My guess is no.
 
I found a post on /r/tolkienfans, and I thought I'd post it here. Pretty much sums up the problems I personally have with the new movies:

So, what went wrong?

The "Hobbit Plus" Lie
This trilogy was sold to us on the idea that we needed three movies to tell the story of "The Hobbit Plus" - the original novel plus appendices explaining what Gandalf was up to and how everything leads to LOTR.

Well, that just wasn't true. The extra Gandalf material in these films is actually kind of hurried and awkward (like Galadriel telepathically sending Gandalf on a side-quest). By far the most padding in these films comes from scenes PJ invented that have nothing to do with the Necromancer story, scenes that are neither "Hobbit" nor "Plus."

But why did PJ write these scenes?

The Unhealthy Aragorn Obsession
Essentially, the main problem Jackson had with The Hobbit as Tolkien wrote it, is not that it was too long for one movie, but that it was not action-packed enough for three movies.

Peter Jackson has always relied on the resonance of high fantasy to help tell Tolkien's story. Resonance is the common ground between the film's world and the audience's expectations. It's why Gimli has a surly Scottish accent, the orcs have crossbows, the elves are lithe willowy blondes and so on.

There are sequences in LOTR where Tolkien has a lot in common with stereotypical High Fantasy or Dungeons & Dragons. These scenes, like the Mines of Moria, typically work really well on film.

Where these movies struggle is when resonance doesn't work because Tolkien is not bargain-bin fantasy. The biggest difference is the protagonist. Tolkien had the sophistication to make his stories about an ordinary person who matures over the course of an adventure BUT still plays only a humble role in gigantic events.

In LOTR it's evident that Peter Jackson had to battle the temptation to make Aragorn the hero. All sorts of scenes were added to inflate Aragorn's role and importance. This nearly turned farcical. As we all know there was originally a scene shot at the end of ROTK where Aragorn battled a physical Sauron at the Black Gate - luckily, that did not make the final cut.

In the Hobbit, Jackson has firmly put on the Ring of hero-worship. The story is essentially about Thorin. Both movies open with a Thorin-centered prologue. The Arkenstone exists to legitimate Thorin's kingship. The orcs are after Thorin and Azog was created to give Thorin a personal antagonist. The tensions between elves and dwarves exist to embody Thorin's feelings of betrayal.

There are all kinds of flashbacks and asides in these movies to establish that the story is "about" Thorin's destiny.

This gets so out of hand, in Bilbo's scene with Smaug (which is supposed to be about Bilbo's growing courage and competence) we have Smaug prattling on about Thorin and how "Oakenshield's quest will fail." Then Thorin fights Smaug! Amazingly, Bilbo is reduced to a side character in his own story. This one simple line is wrong for so many reasons. The whole point of the novel is that the dwarves come to rely on Bilbo. The book is not about "Oakenshield's quest" and book-Smaug never knows or cares that Thorin has returned to the mountain.

The (Non)Violence Problem
When you compare Tolkien to Highe Fantasye, it's evident that his books "aren't violent enough." Specifically, Bilbo and Frodo don't slaughter enough dudes. Actually their most significant act is sparing Gollum's life.

In LOTR this was okay because PJ could balance Frodo/Sam/Gollum scenes against the ongoing War Of The Ring with its epic battles.

In The Hobbit, this doesn't work. The novel is about Bilbo's journey from mild-mannered hobbit to true adventurer and leader. But aside from the spider episode, Bilbo often finds clever and non-violent solutions to the story's problems:
  • riddling with Gollum then sparing his life
  • smuggling the dwarves out of prison in barrels
  • giving away the Arkenstone to end the siege
In the novel, the dwarves are hapless and Gandalf only helps as needed. That gives room for Bilbo to grow as a character. Bilbo becomes very brave by the end of the novel, but his bravery lies in his willingness to do the right thing even at high risk and cost. Not his swordsmanship. The novel ends with a serious message about the consequences of greed and short-sighted violence.

So how can PJ cram more action into these movies?

In Unexpected Journey he did it by turning the dwarves into CGI characters that endlessly slay wolves and goblins. He also created a final boss fight so that Bilbo can finally earn Thorin's grudging respect by being brave enough to fight Azog (notice how this completely goes against Bilbo's character in the novel).

In Desolation, we have Tauriel and Legolas. These characters exist purely for action scenes. We know that at an early stage in story development Viggo was asked to return as Aragorn and it's possible that he was meant to fill this role. It's evident that Bard, as well, is being turned into an action character.

As one review put it: "Gandalf tells Galadriel that it is not great power but rather the everyday deeds of ordinary folk that defeat evil. It's a nice sentiment, but not one that the film buys into even for a moment. On the contrary, with its fixation on hyperbolic action sequences, the film has real trouble figuring out how to value the unwarlike Bilbo."

Story Butter Over Too Much Script Bread
The final, basic problem with these movies is that there's no character development. Critics have called the characterization "thin," "colorless," and have even said that it has "no momentum."

So what? The truth is that Jackson's movies have always contained wallpaper dialog with lines that are flatter than week-old Pepsi.

It's because stereotypical High Fantasy is so pompous that the characters become inhuman. They just walk around spouting declarative statements at each other like "The enemy is preparing for war" and "There will be no dawn for men." Most of PJ's invented dialog has always had this cardboard feeling.

Yet the LOTR movies worked. That was because PJ had plenty of places in the movie for character-establishing dialog, and he took that straight from Tolkien. He even imaginatively repurposed a lot of the prose, for example Gandalf's "far green country" speech. And PJ seemed to understand that Sam and Frodo's friendship was at the core of LOTR, and that he was telling a human (well, hobbit) story in the midst of this great war.

In The Hobbit PJ has lost his perspective. By missing that the story is about Bilbo's growth, PJ has crammed the movie with a bunch of swashbuckling characters that don't develop. They just go from action episode to action episode.

Did you ever wonder why you liked Smaug so much in Desolation? It's because Smaug is the only character in the movie who mostly speaks lines from Tolkien. For every other character, the vast majority of their dialog is invented... and it shows. The movie has been compared to "bad fan fiction" and that's because of a screenplay that lurches between action scenes with the most perfunctory, "let's move the plot" dialog imaginable.

Summary
So that's it I guess. These movies suffer from the fact that Peter Jackson didn't really want to tell the story Tolkien wrote. Jackson was always drawn more to the Thorin/Aragorn side of the story than the true story about an unassuming Hobbit, and in these prequel movies he has free creative reign to reshape the book to his whim. The result is a bloated action adventure with no heart.
 
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I like Glove's response. Now, I havn't seen LOTR, but I know a lot about it. The only thing's I know of that frustrate me about the movies are no Bombadil (my favorite character) and no Ghan-buri-ghan (this implies that Sauron is dumb; in the movie, they either messed with the geography of Middle-earth or made Sauron forget to guard against Rohan--even if he's evil, it doesn't mean he's stupid).

But the Hobbit is a completely different matter. The Lord of the Rings books always seemed darker to me (I get feelings from a lot of things; in books, some feel neutral, like the book Loser, some feel darker, like LOTR, The Inheritance Cycle [Eragon], and the Kane Chronicles. Others seem light, like the Hobbit, Harry Potter, and Percy Jackson). The Hobbit seemed like a more cheerful book, not quite to a children's book, but not as violent as the movies. PJ (as @Fornad calls him) added too much action. He wanted to make it more based toward what most people wanted, not making it along the lines of the books. He added the Orcs attacking Lake-town, made the rulers of Lake-town seem almost evil. What PJ did turned the Hobbit not into a movie based off the cheerier, more fun-to-read book, and into a violent war film that just follows the storyline of the book. I wish he'd made it into a movie that could have been rated PG, not PG-13. I wish it had been something that I could have walked out feeling very happy, like all was well.

Another thing is how he expanded the movie. He could have made a pleasant, 1 1/2 hour movie that left you feeling all happy and ready for bed, but instead he's making 3 2 1/2 hour parts that are filled with action and violence that make feel, sort of...bad.

Another part I HATE is Radagast. Yes, Radagast is supposed to be simpler, but he isn't supposed to be an idiot. In the movies, he has birds under his hat, and is all fearful. In the books, his speech makes him sound simple yet smart (like Horace from the Ranger's Apprentice) and tougher than he looks.

The "good guys" are also too "good." One time, Tauriel (or whatever her name is) ducks a club coming at her from behind. The Elves are not completely ninja, and can sense movements when no one else can. They don't care about how they look in battle. Tauriel, when fighting the spiders, does overly-fancy reverse Matrix (meaning attacks, not dodges) moves, which involve riding spiders. Then Legolas shoots an orc from point-blank range, the arrow still moving so fast when it hits that it goes through the orc into the wall. Why? He could have pulled a knife and cut his throat. Fancy moves are of no use unless you're trying to impress the ladies (which he wasn't. There weren't any ladies watching.)

All in all, Peter Jackson is not the best guy for the Hobbit. Maybe he was more in-bounds with LOTR, but he seems to have used up all of his self-restraint holding back from making LOTR the "movie of his dreams," and went wild on the Hobbit.

P.S. Remember, this is all my opinions. I'm a milder person than most, and don't like extreme violence, not even non-extreme violence (unless it involves laser-guns, starships, humor, or Wipeout). Maybe the Hobbit is the kind of movie that most people like. I don't know, 'cause I'm definitely not most people.
 
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I love the visuals. I thrive on details.

Stuff I think we can all agree on:
  • The books are better
  • Being able to see stuff in the movie like Goblin Town, Rivendell, Beorn, Dol Guldur, Mirkwood, add to the list, was fantastic
  • Peter Jackson made mistakes
 
It's quite paradoxal but The Hobbit lose his charm because of stupid fantasy cliche while it is one of the first fantasy book.
 
I think a lot of the bits from Fornad's post really do nail some of the issues with the Hobbit, however I didn't find all this additional action to be a bad thing. Many of the situations in the book itself resolved themselves in non-violent ways, which is one of the things I didn't enjoy about the Hobbit. Sure some of the scenes were enjoyable to read, but they either flew past really quickly or skipped over exciting bits completely.

I understand the remarks about how action in the book like that "wouldn't be Tolkien". I agree completely. That wasn't how Tolkien wrote. The die hard fans and purists of Tolkien's work will appreciate this kind of writing and scoff at the idea of more action bits in the book. I think that Tolkien no doubt was very good at description and creating a world with amazing characters, cultures, and stories. However what the story had in depth, it lacked in suspense.

Very often times I find when reading the books (Hobbit and LOTR) that events or descriptions drag on too long, or scenes resolve themselves in a way that halts the excitement and suspense like a car hitting a wall in a crash test. I always like to use the Battle of the Five Armies as an example, where in the book Bilbo gets knocked out and we skip everything. This huge battle is about to break out and then we don't get to read about it. Some of the battle scenes in the Inheritance Cycle (Eragon books) were absolutely fantastic reads, filled with amazing descriptions and fantastic excitement. I just always thought Tolkien wasn't good at suspense. That's partially why I put down the books for weeks at a time during my first read through because it got so boring. Fantastic descriptions and such only get you so far. Yes I completely understand every reason why Tolkien didn't write like this, but some people will likely still say that his books are the pinnacle of amazing writing. I have found many more books to be a more enjoyable read. LOTR mostly gripped me by its characters and lore more than the actual writing and flow of the story.

So going back to the movie. I enjoyed these movies because for me personally I got to see parts in the book that I wished had been there in the first place. I visually get to see all this amazing action and feel that rush of excitement as the suspense builds throughout the scene. That's the kind of stuff I like reading, where I can pick up a book and by the suspenseful and gripping story alone can keep me glued to my chair until I finish. That's not to say that the movie is without flaws, but I just tend to overlook them in light of the pure enjoyment I got out of the movies. I can understand why some of you who absolutely love Tolkien's writing and story don't like the Hobbit movies.
 
No. Not Eragon please.
Dude, Eragon is the one of the best. Just a fun fact, but me and all of my friends who have read LOTR and Eragon think that Eragon is based of LOTR.

Also, Bevs, I do agree that Tolkien isn't a "suspense" writer. However, Jackson can't do mystery. He took out Bombadil. He made Beorn explain why he can shape-shift. There isn't mystery in his movies, but there's suspense. I'd rather take mystery. I
n the Hobbit, PJ inflates the excitement so much that the movie was already way too long, and he didn't have time for character development (which, you might note, is the whole point of the Hobbit.) In fact, it reminds me of Indiana Jones in the way that Indiana kills, like, about a hundred "bad guys." No one can fight that well. PJ works too hard making a movie he wants, and takes out all of the real points of the books.
 
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