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Important About the sudden change of Head Designer, the discovered ac/mcme merge idea

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You guys are literally killing me.

In case anybody wanted the terms, which I think are some real bull shit, have at it. The introduction is just offensive, "without even thinking of pooling their resources in order to better achieve their task" - Ardacraft literally broke off from us and broke our pool of resources starting this whole fucking issue in the first place.

It is hard to imagine any form of solution after the days and weeks of effort that have gone into our project. Think about how just a day before we were all so proud of Gondor because WE created, literally everything in Gondor has a personal touch and now we are suppose to just throw that away and keep the towns? And mentioning an MCME 3.0? WTF is that? Last I checked we were happy with our map. Its also hard to imagine joining a community that was literally founded because people were against our project.

I get where you are coming from Finrod, I get it. But at the same time this is really really frustrating to hear. This has caused a lot of unrest in the community which is frustrating as well.

This isn't servers merging, this is MCME collapsing and Ardacraft taking its place. These builds are OURS, the server is OURS, MCME is OURS, I want nothing to do with fucking Ardacraft I wanna finish OUR server.
 
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I have to say, I agree with @Fireinferno13 - we have put in countless hours more than ardacraft has, and yet they are making literally no meaningful concessions in the merge. They get to keep terrain, existing builds, mods, and resource packs, while we are left with a few token gains like the rules system and the name. Additionally, the builds are not really "mixed;" ours will be essentially thrown away since we will have to increase the size by almost half and change the resource pack. It seems almost like the agreement is saying that we have come to realize ardacraft is better and now we want to join them.

Also, the new MCME 3.0 will not have a huge player base, as the agreement seems to indicate. It will be larger, yes, but not significantly enough to make any changes based on it.

I would also question how a project can continue uninterrupted when the terrain is suddenly enlarged by almost two times.
 
I am personally very scared by this suggestion. I was never on the "old MCME" before the merge, like most everyone else on the server. I had never even heard of Ardacraft till I was a staff member and asked Kisos. Since then I have heard an intense rivalry, between these two servers. I have seen many pictures of the beauty and splendor of Ardacraft, but have not been able to see it. I have been blocked by the launcher, never getting through to the server for having a crappy computer. I have also tried downloading all their mods and doing it manually but this has failed as well. My great fear of this merger, along with many other adventurers and artists I will assume, is not getting onto this modded server. Our number will drop like crazy once the launcher is involved I feel. If it hinders me it will most likely do the same to a 12 year old excited to join this beautiful world they have just discovered from a youtube video with Isengard.
While this new 1:58 scale map is enticing, I don't think we should be too dazzled and ready to join at the tip of a hat. We need to know a lot more to make an informed decision. We need CLEAR plans about all of this, and to be assured that we can ALL even join this new server. I also believe that a month is a bit of a stretch when it comes to time it will take. I feel a bit betrayed by finrod by the deception and the shadows. I would ALSO like to use a Tolkien quote "All that is gold does not glitter", even if this looks appealing there is MUCH more that isn't so appealing, dark bits that will hide along the way, that will hinder us, and bring us crashing back to reality.

Also I would like to point out that when writing this I checked Ardacraft's dynmap and with the few seconds I was on Glov made the remark "Poor Fin tries to do something reasonable and gets damned by all the staff" also that he doesn't give a f as long as he builds Dale"
 
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Why on earth would we merge, we have a perfectly fine working server? As others have already stated, Ardacraft was born out of people who did not like our server's style and deided to make their own with an extremely different aesthetic. I do not see any benefit from a merger outside of helping Fornad and Ardacraft out by allowing them access to our builds and resources. I'm also extremely dissapointed in @Finrod_Amandil , you're head designer man why on earth were you not communicating with other staff about this idea or even at the very least mentioning it to Q. In my opinion your lucky you weren't banned for this considering in the past people who did things like this were either perma banned or dealt with in other serious ways.
 
As has been pointed out many times now, one of the biggest issues is that it has happened behind everyone's back. It is most important to that you see why so far this has been secret: One week ago by chance we saw that I and Fornad share the sympathy for this idea. It would have been silly to run in the first second to q and you and present you a completely unrefined idea where we did not even had the chance to talk about it among us two. And that is all that has happened in this week: We have talked about it and collected notes how we thought it may work out. I can't imagine that anyone of you believes we thought we could "pull this off" by circumventing q and everyone else. If we wanted to create "Finfornad Middle-earth" we could just have founded another ArdaCraft. The idea we had was doing it step by step, resolving issues and pressing questions before the idea gets presented for discussion to everyone else. We NEVER wanted to do this behind everyone's back AT ALL, how could this even work?

All those who claim "MCME is perfectly fine as it is" may be right for themselves. But if we take that as reason to avoid changes, no matter how great they may be, noone of MCME can any longer complain that there are only boring terrain jobs, that theres so much terrain to voxel or that the number of blocks is so limited. And most of all, whoever follows me as Head Designer cannot complain about that god dang everlasting conflict between the two servers that has accompanied me as long as I had that rank and has cost me more energy than anything else. For me there never was everything okay. And nobody can any longer complain that AC is always sucking away our members.

Why do so many of us hate ArdaCraft? Do you have personal conflicts with concrete members of them? If so, can you really draw an opinion about all of AC from that? Do you dislike their members in general? If so, well, why? Do you dislike that they took so many of our builders?


But whatever you think about it all, it was never meant to happen behind everyones back and not leaving it open for everyone's opinion. You see it now yourself, the idea is yet very crude, if things would have gone differently we would have been able to resolve a lot more questions beforehand.
 
If I may give my opinion about this, I'd say that this ArdaCraft stuff is going way too far. I have said it since the beginning and I keep saying it, just leave them be. They are ArdaCraft, they have their own ways and we are MCME and we have ours. I'm getting pretty scared of the idea of merging with each other, mostly because many people will resign, including me. As much as I love MCME I cannot watch as ArdaCraft slowly takes over our project. Because that's what is already happening, instead of talking about the new terrain someone made and how cool it looks, it always ends up being about ArdaCraft.
To summarise this, I don't think it's a good idea as they will slowly take over and we will lose members. So I would say let them be AC, and let us be MCME.
 
We don't necessarilty hate them Finrod, and the more pressing issue is that we have extremely different ideas about how to build Middle Earth in Minecraft. It's understandable that you wanted to keep this idea under wraps, but you could have at least started a conversation with our staff about it or mention that you were in talks with Fornad about this so that we could voice our opinions on the process. MCME has for the most part been about open and free discussion when it comes to projects, implementation of rules and other events on the server. It's how we decide on what will happen and sometimes it takes a great deal of time to discuss things, but it eventually gets figured out and finished. The way in which you conducted yourself here is a demonstration that you don't understand that fact about our community by choosing either naively or maliciously to keep this information hidden from the members and staff of this server.

Also just making some points on the document itself, how on earth are you planning on smashing our builds together on their map. Their map is much larger then ours and our builds, according to the Ardacraft standards, are not lore accurate enough or large enough, so are we just going to build totally new buildings for their map? There is also the issue with mods, as has been stated by other staff here, and in the other post about this topic, why would we adopt their mods? Our map/minecraft server does not use mods on the same level as Ardacraft, to get on their server you need an entire new launcher that sometimes works and other times doesn't which doesn't bode well for new people trying to enter the server. And as a final note, this whole project just looks to most of us as Ardacraft appropriating MCME into it's map, and community. If you look at all the headers/ points of discussion in this document it's Ardacraft's launcher, resource pack, rules, lore, and financial system, this looks less like an equal merger and more like MCME helps Ardacraft become better.
 
This situation troubles me a lot.

In a few days I will be a Designer for one year and what did I do in this year? I made Terrain and Rivers. First in Lothlorien and since September in Lamedon. I spent hours and hours with the voxel arrow in hand to shape them nicely. And I really enjoyed to do it.
Thus the idea to continue on the Ardacraft map means to drop everything I have done as Designer on MCME. Thats would be hard to me. I tired to do some terraforming yesterday in Belfalas, but my motivation was, well, there was none.

Foundation of Ardacraft was before I even joined MCME thus I don't really now what happend then. But the recurring drama between the communities pains me. The disruption of people who want to recreate Middle-earth hurts. Great builders have parted from MCME. And good ideas were lost too: I like Ardacrafts goal to build more accurate geological terrain and historical villages. Their terrain and villages looks just great on their dynmap (not ingame imo, i don't like the modpack and texurepack at all).
So I can understand Finrod's "wildest dream" to merge Ardacraft and MCME.

But now we are in a very bad situation. Everyone has been surprised and shocked by a message "Finrod banned". Most of us (including me) are scared, aroused, upset...

What happend:
  • Finrod and Fornad are in contact for a long time and we all knew about that. They noticed that they both share a dream to merge Ardacraft and MCME. I'm sure they both were aware how difficult it would be to realize regarding all the drama between the communities. They made a document with their first ideas. What else could they have done? They needed something to present to others. I don't think this was wrong.
  • Finrod yet made a bad mistake, he is not in the same position as Fornad as owner of Ardacraft. This is such an important matter, he should have informed q at once. There was a bad misunderstanding. q thought Finrod was going to steal MCME map and take it to Ardacraft. I don't know what happend then. But q's trust in Finrod was damaged and all this became public before the right time.
I believe Finrod that he was planning to present this to us for discussion. I only wished that he had talked to us before making such a detailed plan in that document. But I accept his apology.

What should we do now?
This is a very bad situation to talk about merging with Ardacraft.
I disagree with many points in Finrod's and Fornad's document indeed it feels like MCME joining Ardacraft. But the document was never meant to become public in this state. It is as Finrod said just a first collection of ideas. I don't think we should discuss about that document at the moment. It is very clear in the document that Finrod and Fornad don't think this could be done in near future.

Maybe all this can do some good. The dream to merge may help to overcome the troubles between the comunities. Fornad said in the chat with Finrod: "And I think a lot of MCME builds, especially the recent ones, could easily be ported over". They surely will not be "ported over" but those members of Ardacraft eventually will cease from saying "MCME is shit" with this idea in mind.
 
Ugh i hate making so many posts, but here comes another

I want to find out what fornads intentions truly are, because i do not belive the base value of what he has said so far, looking at it from a positive perspective. He probably knows everything we are saying here, with seemingly everything being told to him by someone :/ , but so far he has given no indication of catering anything to us, besides playing up despot and others with cool mod features on their teamspeak. I think he is totally playing fin atm, so we must find out for ourselves what his true intentions are, because if you think about it, even if his intentions are good, why should we cater to someone that left us. He could have changed mcme if had actually wanted to. Instead he goes off with some other lads for 2 years. And now you want our people to follow him, that has shit talked us in numerous youtube videos, and posts, as well as shitalking tyran and other members. What they are saying and whar they are doing has never added up, and it still doesnt, just as they both fin and fornad say "this was never meant to be a secret" yet wtf else was it going to be? Dont deny the truth. Fornad wants to keep his power, and so do i and everyone else but hes only done stuff so far to undermine us, as i see it.
Main point: find out what this operation janus (suspicious name in itself) is coming from fornads view. Wether it is just to attract ppl to ardacraft or is he actually trying to help.

Also, come on other staff members, give your opinions! Since this is apparently about polls and opinions thread now.
 
Please, calm down. It is an idea, not a decision noone can change anything about, in contrary: Everything will be discussed, you all can voice your good points, but please do not have the impression the entire thing was meant to remain secret and exclude your opinions, that is and never was an intention of me. The document that was made is by no means final, it is ideas to discuss and improve on.

I would like to invite you to a first meeting tonight at 20:00 BST on our TS so that we can voice the most pressing concerns and discuss about them.
 
Finrod I feel you are no longer representing MCME best interest and thats why I lost my trust in you along with you lying to me. On topic of the merge in its current form I do not approve of it at all. Frankly I don't really see any benefit from a merge in any kind. I mean how did we go from solving drama to besomming best buddy's with Ardacraft thats like 2 steps ahead if you ask me. When I run trough all the options of a way to see this merge work I still think the negative would outweigh the positive.
A few things became clear there are still allot of issues between both servers. But the one that bothers me the most is the kind of ELITIST approach you and Ardacraft seem to have regarding how we should proceed to build middle earth. Of course we try to do our best with what we have. But for me it was never about being the best server in terms of builds or lore accurateness. For me it was all about the community I do not care if we where building Narnia with just dirt blocks as long as we where having fun as a community.
To me our biggest achievement is bringing people from all over the world together to work on a similar goal. And if we go into an elitist approach of perfectionism (more lore accurate "better" resource pack bigger map etc etc) nothing is just not good enough anymore. It will alienate a big part of the community. Who really cares about what other servers think about us.
Even if we where to use our map to and focused everything on finishing what we have with Ardacraft before doing anything with their map I see no real benefit in a merge. Only drama and trouble can come out of the current state of affairs. There is one good side to this whole drama though. That we are at least talking again to each other as servers but as it stands right now I think I will keep it at that. I am tired of the drama just as much as any of you. And because I think allot of drama will come up with a merge in any way it is represented I will not further negotiate terms untill the tensions settle down and we can at least talk and trust one an other again. Cause a this moment I have little trust in any of this to be beneficial to MCME we can talk about it but I do not think I will be easily swayed from this opinion. And I mean what kind of sick joke did you and Fornad try to pull with to name of a Greek "two faced" god as the name of the merge operation/plan in the google document.

On a side note I hope Finrod that i can trust you again in the future because you meant allot for MCME and still do no matter on what side you are standing right now even if you think you are not picking a side. I hope you will realize that this might not be the right time to talk about merge and that right now its best to mend the wounds you and Fornad have caused before some stuff becomes irreversible. Forcing anyone or anything to like something will work against the original intended goal.
 
Simply to voice my own opinion, if ever there was a merge, we alone would be calling the shots because they left us and they are the dying server. The terms would be entirely ours.
As what has been said before, their mod pack might not work on all computers, a perfect example would be my own Mac. If this merge happened, I would be forced to resign because my computer would not even be able to run the launcher. I can imagine many new players not even being able to join the server.
I also entirely agree with cred above; we simply don't need anything that a possible merge could offer. Even if we did need those particular benefits, such as larger world size, couldn't we eventually upgrade to that on our own? Our textures are 16x16, it's true, but once again, if we wanted something better, couldn't we upgrade on our own? Why go through such trouble, uprooting and making tons of voxel work in vain just to merge with a group who has benefits that we can make our own, on our own terms? If the members of ArdaCraft wish to close their server and join us without any conditions, I would welcome them with open arms thinking our server has truly benefited. This doesn't sound like it's going to happen though.

I'm sorry fin, I like you a lot, and I hope you return to your former position, but it sounds to me like we are all (or almost all) against the idea.
 
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In my opinion, this whole thing caused so much drama only because Finrod didn't inform Q about his idea before starting to make some plans with Fornad and I think it is his only mistake he made. I am 100 % sure that Finrod, after making some rough plans about his idea with Fonrad, would have come and tell us about everything and then we would discuss about it like we are doing now and conclude that this is not good for us and that's it, nothing would have happened. That was Finrod idea that he think is good and most of you dissagree with that and thats ok. I don't see any reason he wanted to do this behind our back and intentionally hide this from us. In my opinion he just wanted to come in front of us with something concretely, not just idea and I fully understand that and I don't see anything wrong here expect not telling Q first about this idea..

Next I agree with Credoo about that we need to enjoy as a community what we are doing but I don't think it is elitist approach only because you want to make something even better and make look nicer and more realistic. Don't get me wrong here that I want to compete with someone or that my goal is to be better then other server, I just like to improve things and to make everything as better as it could be and here I cannot deny that some of their work is great but I think it's only because texture pack and blocks variety (but again it is only my opinion and I understand some of you who are not fan of that) so at the first moment I thought this is maybe good idea, we can make something better, maybe it is because I don't know much about people from AC because they left before I joined this server so I don't know them that much as you do. Not speaking about this particular case, I am always for building bridges between people not walls and finding ways to bring people closer and together, so I have to say I fully support Finrod in that.

As it looks, marge will probably never happen and that is fine if that is what most of community want and think that is better.
 
Our server is more than just a group of people building Tolkien's vision, its a community of people coming together. A lot of the people who left our server for Ardacraft left because they didn't fit our community. In my opinion its a pretty bull shit excuse to leave for the "quality" or whatever because if someone is a good enough builder they have more than enough opportunities to build to the highest standards on our own server. That being said, we have a sense of community that in my opinion Ardacraft neither shares nor will ever achieve on their own. Their server was founded on a belief of elitism and division, community values that MCME does not share given our focus on inclusion.


MCME has a sense of pride in our work that I also doubt Ardacraft could ever achieve. Think about the amazing leaps and bounds this server has made through our community bonds! We are not just a server with the purpose of building, we are a server that seeks to serve the community whereas Ardacraft seeks to serve the few. We have our own accomplishments that I would pick any day over a big ass incomplete map:
  • Our resourcepack is OURS. Our community made it, our community continues to make it
    • In terms of "Upgrading" our RP, OUR community members have formed a team of individuals attempting to create an HD alternative for people looking for something different
  • Our plugins were creating by OUR DEVELOPERS
  • Our social media and community outreach has been widely successful
    • An aspect that Ardacraft has always been a parasite to, feeding off our popularity

In the event of a merger I will resign. If their community decides to come crawling back, let them, but I ain't merging for any reason what soever.

(#MCMEUnited)
 
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I'd like to admit that I don't have much feedback to give on the matter of how each person in this thread feels about ArdaCraft; as I am an ArdaCraft member myself, and as much as I'd like to have the same level of pride and devotion towards just one community: I can't place myself as anything other than neutral. I also want to set the idea straight that I don't represent Fornad or AC as a whole--as I'm barely active on AC outside of a few nature builds such as fir forests in Lindon, etc.

But what I would like to comment on, regardless of how talks between Q, Fornad, Finrod, and all of you is that I find this whole matter disturbing. I don't find it disturbing because of anyone's particular intentions (Finrod and Fornad talking together privately before presenting a solid idea to everyone else.) But what I do find disturbing is fear-mongering.

Two high ranking people discussing how to fix wounds inflicted upon both communities is seen as fraternizing with some enemy and not as a first step to peace.

A document outlining possible methods for an eventual reunion, if one should ever occur is seen as a KGB style document of sedition.

Discussion about making both communities involved in a single map is seen as stealing and sabotage.

And sure, even if those who are for a merger are wrong about how or why it should take place, There's still an US vs THEM mentality in this ordeal, and that sets a sad precedent for people like me, who'd love to come back and rejoin both communities. Am I going to be met with animosity? Am I going to face MCMEUNITED fervor when discussing something that's been a longing and a wish from even me? It doesn't feel right. We've had our disagreements, all of us. But I think the tensions between our servers is just that, tension. There's been more reason instill fear and disgust towards each other than there's been actual disagreement

More so, the accusation has even been lead that AC is trying to take over, but from what little I have been involved--there are just as many questions raised with this change on our end as there are for MCME's end. However, I've seen discussion; myself included, where a few of us would be quite happy with us coming together as a community. Nothing could make many of us happier, especially if we could eventually agree on a certain style, possible mod-blocks. But ultimately what matters to us is a reunited community. Not one community destroying the other, together or separately. And I don't think Finrod or anyone in agreement with a future where we could one day join back together has any delusions on how easy or hard it's going to be for it to happen.

But what ultimately hurts me is that we'd have staff and members willing to resign and quit, not only if we'd try to merge, but if any of us dared to rejoin the community with any sort of influence. I don't wish to see that become a reality for either server, but I'm still behind AC joining MCME again under any terms because I'm that passionate about both communities.

On a side note: Yeah, I feel some attachment to both maps--but I'd gladly give up both for a strong mix of the two. That's probably just me, though--as I really didn't have an issue with the new MCME map being made despite the fact that I spent many hours digging the Isen River and placing grass in Rohan. It was a change that was going to happen at some point, so I'd like to maybe share my thoughts on apprehension towards a map that's more AC centric or a map that's more MCME centric after this whole mess is made a little more clear to all of us.

EDIT: Hi Willem! Hi Eaglz!
 
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Although many people will not care about my opinion or say that I haven't been part of the community for too long. Which in my opinion is fair enough. What I can add to this conversation is a viewpoint of a person who had the possibility to join both servers.

When I by accident stumbled up on a video made by Jesse Cox I decided to click on the Thumbnail (Return of the Kings: A MCME). We all know how it is to watch youtube videos and just scroll through them and just skip to the next one. In this case that didn't happen, I watched the whole video from the beginning to the end. After that I benched watch all of the videos (The Two Towers and outside the blocks by jesse and the Moria by milkthemoose). The last video made me stumble on The Shire Tour (Arda Craft). Which i also watched from beginning to end.

As I didn´t own a Minecraft account I decided to purchase one to join one of these server. So me having no idea on how to build on Minecraft or of any of the history of MCME (although I had watched the youtube videos). So me having a total blanc opinion (without even knowing about the drama between the two servers) decided to join MCME.

I have been thinking a lot lately on why I decided to join MCME over Ardacraft. I came to the conclusion that it was mainly because of the passion that could be felt in the video that all the people had for MCME. You could hear the pride in their voices as they talked about their builds and how they achieved them. The amazing passion they have for building these amazing builds and their plans for the future. This and me really wanting to roam through all the beautiful places in MCME.

I joined and roamed through all the major builds. I could have been one of many that came once of the server and then leave again. The chance of this happing was very big as I didn't have any previous minecraft experience and didn't have a specific love for the game. What kept me here was the TB, Jobs and especially the community. I decided to log on Teamspeak and playing a game with @Tyranystrasz. I have logged in almost daily since that day. You can put it this way: I fell in love with MCME and its community.

The community is special something i have never seen before. Its not 100% minecraft or 100 % lord of the rings. It is much more then that. I enjoy all parts of them. From building on MCME to discussing IRL morals or events with @Credoo one evening or even bantering around with all the other artist and designers. Both the seriousness and the banter is what makes it the total package.

As of the discussion of merging or not merging. Of course all people will have their own opinion. Just remember that we all have love for this project.
 
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Before anything, since so many responses on this thread have been based on it: the document which many of you have seen represents nothing. See below.

Since I have been insulted multiple times in this thread I cannot stand idly by. I do not wish to escalate the drama and tension, but I will not be attacked for things that are not true or for half-truths.

This is going to be a long post so I'm going to spoiler it into different sections.

Firstly, I'd like to point out the things in this thread that I agree with:

Credoo: "Things might change on the long term or they might not. That being unsure there is no use to make any plans untill we know more."

DSE: "Really, before we can even talk about a merge, we need to ensure that all members are friendly toward one another. Perhaps a good start would be to host a joint pvp or survival server."

Despot:
"- There HAS TO BE a document, locked later saying what is taken from where (AC/MC) and what changes would be included both on merge and LATER after some time (like adjusting style, resizing etc). This document should include both general lcoations (regions/towns) and specific builds (like MT citdel, Osgo dome etc). If something is merged from MCME it could not be changed in extend it could be considered a full rework without pointing it in this doc.
- No cutting ranks, rank system has to be negotiated. Everyone keeps their rights from MCME (desig/bounders/artists)
- Everyone would have more or less agree to the idea. Like @Fireinferno13 .
- We cant use solely AC RP, for our builds we would also have merge some of our blocks/packs (moria/gondor mainly, rohan(?))
- Major projects/styles would have to benegotiated beforehand (dwarven styles, mordor style etc) to avoid potential future conflict
- Launcher will be open source. We could check code/compile it ourselves (safety/security reaons - verification etc)."

Mandos: "We need CLEAR plans about all of this, and to be assured that we can ALL even join this new server. I also believe that a month is a bit of a stretch when it comes to time it will take."

Eriol: "But the recurring drama between the communities pains me. The disruption of people who want to recreate Middle-earth hurts. Great builders have parted from MCME... I disagree with many points in Finrod's and Fornad's document indeed it feels like MCME joining Ardacraft. But the document was never meant to become public in this state. It is as Finrod said just a first collection of ideas. I don't think we should discuss about that document at the moment. It is very clear in the document that Finrod and Fornad don't think this could be done in near future."

Now to a misconception. The document that Fireinferno links above has very little to do with anything.

Look at it this way. Finrod and I had a dream which we both shared. But – as has become all too apparent over the past 48 hours – it is an incredibly sensitive topic for both communities, and so instead of immediately running off to tell Q, the MCME staff and the core members of ArdaCraft, we decided to come up with a proposal which we could present to Q, having shown we’d put real thought into it first. Unless you think that discussing an idea in private is an abhorrent, immoral act, nothing we did was wrong. In what universe does anyone here imagine that we would somehow 'go behind the backs' of Q, the MCME community and the ArdaCraft community, and merge without their consent? There are two things about that document which many either don’t know or don’t fully appreciate:

1) There were a huge number of comments on the side where Finrod and I were discussing the pros and cons of each paragraph, and other potential solutions to each topic. You guys only saw the paragraphs and so assumed that they were final decisions. They were far from that.

2) The document was barely a week old. I wrote most of it without thinking too deeply about each point, Finrod had problems with quite a few points, but we had not had the time to come up with a general proposal which we thought would be initially acceptable to Q, and which we could show to you guys.

It all happened in the worst way possible, and no assumptions about this potential merge should be taken from that document.

Now to responses to certain statements which I feel cannot go unopposed.



These are good examples of a conception of the merge based on that document. I'd like you guys to forget about this sort of conception for now because it has no relevance.



When I founded ArdaCraft two years ago, I did it because I had serious concerns over the changes that were being made at the time, and believed that there was a significant chunk of MCME’s community who were going to leave the server as a result. Though I tried to change things from within the server by offering my map to Homie (and indeed had often tried to push towards things like greater lore accuracy before that), it was rejected, and so I made the choice to leave. My beliefs about the community proved correct, and instead of leaving Minecraft forever, players who shared my concerns like Glov, Fresh, Dags, wheellee and Guan followed me. When asked on YouTube videos or comments on Reddit about why I left MCME, I gave an honest answer. If you see that as 'shit-talking' then I don't know what to tell you.

I now believe that MCME is at a point where many of my concerns are either resolved or are on the path to being resolved. Finrod has pushed for a greater emphasis on the lore and on realistic terrain. Despot has made 3D models for Moria, pushing the boundaries of Minecraft, and has made a 32x32 Eriador pack. Tyran is doing work with WorldMachine. And there is a desire amongst many on MCME for a bigger map. I think that in many ways, our goals and aims have come closer in the two years since the split.

So I believe a merge is possible. But you might ask why I think it would be beneficial. For me this is not some sinister plot (how on earth I’d get that past Q and you guys I still cannot imagine) or some power grab (I'd have far less power on the new server than I currently do on ArdaCraft), but instead it is a homecoming, and a chance to make some changes in MCME that I thought were impossible (and almost certainly were impossible in the short term) two years ago. All I want to do, regardless of labels or servers or conflict or drama, is to create the most awe-inspiring, vast and impressive Middle-earth in Minecraft that I can, and I believe pooling our resources is the best way to do that.

I don’t know how else to convince you of how sincere I am other than to say that I have a university exam later today and instead of studying I have put my time aside for this post. That’s how much this means to me.


If that was genuinely the case, why revamp Moria? You're making it bigger and with a better resource pack than the old one. Why did you ask me for my map two years ago? Did you not think that would alienate a big part of the community?

I really don't see how it is elitist to try to do the best job that you can - which is something I believe MCME has always done. In my view, having more builders (for example) would only aid you in that goal.

Credoo said:
And I mean what kind of sick joke did you and Fornad try to pull with to name of a Greek "two faced" god as the name of the merge operation/plan in the google document.
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"The Roman God Janus... was the god of beginnings, gates, transitions, time, doorways, passages, and endings... Janus presided over the beginning and ending of conflict, and hence war and peace."

He looked into the past - and into the future. I thought it was appropriate. If you want to assume the very worst, then that's your right.

bender400 said:
they are the dying server
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Where do you get this impression from, I'd like to ask? Sure, we don't have as many players as MCME, but that's always been the case. We're currently making steady progress on a city that's as large as Osgiliath and another that's as big as Bree. I fail to see how a 'dying server' could acheive that.

bender400 said:
As what has been said before, their mod pack might not work on all computers, a perfect example would be my own Mac. If this merge happened, I would be forced to resign because my computer would not even be able to run the launcher.
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One of our most dedicated members runs on a Mac, so this is simply not true.


I'm sure that you could do all of those things (though it would take literally years to create a larger map to a good standard of detail on third-party programs), but during these talks with Q I will be offering them to MCME for no work at all on your part. Like I've said previously, the terms of the merge are all up in the air, but if my map were to be worked on it would require basically no Voxel work at all. Given how long Finrod's Misties section took, it's pretty clear that you guys have far more terrain work ahead of you than you have behind you.

Fireinferno13 said:
we have a sense of community that in my opinion Ardacraft neither shares nor will ever achieve on their own.
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This is genuinely laughable. Fire, when have you actually ever been on ArdaCraft? When have you ever participated in our community? How could you possibly know that? There are people I've met on ArdaCraft whom I consider close friends, as incredible as that might seem to you.

Fireinferno13 said:
Their server was founded on a belief of elitism and division, community values that MCME does not share given our focus on inclusion.
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I see this word 'elitism' being thrown around a lot. Quite frankly, the way in which people of non-staff rank were treated at the time of the split was replete with elitism - that was a big reason why I had to leave. Even the Commoner/Thrall merge drama a while back showed that a lot of MCME's members felt superior to others because of their rank.

I do wonder whether you would have been more happy to see people like Glov, Fresh, Ben, Atlan and so on leave this game and extended community forever instead of pursuing their own visions and goals within them, simply because they created a division. Isn't part of 'inclusion' tolerating the different beliefs of others?


The idea that I am 'constantly' asking members of MCME to join ArdaCraft is a lie. I have not done anything of the sort since the foundation of the server. I messaged Ori, along with others, right at the very beginning, because they were people who had already expressed an interest in my map and my server - they already knew about us, and were functioning, sentient beings able to make a decision between the two. Would it have been somehow better if I'd messaged them on Steam? Is there any real difference, at the end of the day?

Fire, we've never really spoken that much, so I find it incredible that you seem to know me and my intentions so well. A year and a half ago - well after ArdaCraft was founded, I'll remind you - you said in a PM to me "god i love you some times haha" because I was defending MCME against someone's dumb accusations of the server being like Nazi Germany. If you can like someone at one time for defending your group, and hate them at another for causing any kind of danger, perceieved or not, for that group, then you are guilty of tribalism. Try to at least be aware of your own biases here.

Fireinferno13 said:
MCME has a sense of pride in our work that I also doubt Ardacraft could ever achieve.
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Again, this is a complete fantasy based on your own biases.

Fireinferno13 said:
we are a server that seeks to serve the community whereas Ardacraft seeks to serve the few.
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How, exactly, do you imagine I could have gotten anywhere without a strong community at my back? We literally have a section of our forums called 'The Community'. We have community meetings every month where people can raise concerns and questions.

Fireinferno13 said:
Our resourcepack is OURS. Our community made it, our community continues to make it
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Two things:

a) For a long time after MCME started out, the RP was based on Painterly. The resource pack being entirely yours is a relatively recent development, and to expect ArdaCraft to have such a resource from the outset is completely unreasonable. A growing number of our textures (I would estimate around 35%) have been made by members of our community.

b) I think that the MCME Resource Packs could and should remain in place in the event of a merge. They are undoubtedly a fantastic resource which I wouldn't want to throw away. Again, don't let that document guide your thoughts on this matter. These are extremely early days.

Fireinferno13 said:
Our plugins were creating by OUR DEVELOPERS
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And so was our mod. I'm not suggesting getting rid of those plugins either - MCME-Architect looks great.

Fireinferno13 said:
  • Our social media and community outreach has been widely successful
    • An aspect that Ardacraft has always been a parasite to, feeding off our popularity
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The videos I was responsible for during my time on MCME currently total over 400'000 views, so you can thank me for part of that success. But I digress.

In what way have we been a 'parasite' to your success? In fact, when I posted an album of our Shire to imgur and reddit (which got over half a million views, we're hardly averse to publicity success), you guys got a sharp increase in the number of views and players joining. If I hated MCME as much as you seem to hate ArdaCraft, I might have used the word 'parasite' at the time - but I didn't. I just shrugged it off and carried on, because such a hatred would only hurt me and would serve nothing.

TL;DR:

- The document which many of you have seen does not represent the reality of any potential merge - everything is still in discussion and nothing is a foregone conclusion. If the merge were to happen, it would be in the distant future, once relations have calmed down and the climate has substantially changed.
- ArdaCraft and its community is more similar to MCME than many of you seem to think, and through joint events, I believe that many of you could come to understand that.
- MCME could absolutely continue to do things on its own - the question is whether it would benefit more from working alongside the current members of ArdaCraft or not.
- Don't judge people based on your own biases and a few, cherry-picked actions. Even if the merge does not occur, people on both sides need to learn how to forgive if we're ever going to see an end to this drama.

Thank you for reading. I can only hope that the way in which these events have transpired will not cause irreparable damage.
 
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Everything that I wanted to share on this topic has been said in my previous reply's. However among all this conflict I also see a positive side to this drama. Drama usually brings things to light that people rather leave untouched or even buried. The drama showed me there are still many differences (whether it be in opinions or mechanics) between two servers that are working on a similar goal. But ultimately it made room for an new open dialogue between the two servers. A dialogue that revealed differences but also leads to new understandings.

Fornad you might fear it is a big step backwards but I see it more as 1 step back 2 steps forward. That may not lead us to where you want this to go, but ultimately without mutual understanding respect and trust, your idea(l)'s will remain but a dream.
So I welcome the open discussion I know you guys have changed and I bet we have to. Just take it step by step and see where this might lead in a future where both servers reached a level of mutual respect understanding and trust. However for now after looking at the current situation I believe the proposed idea is best to remain a distant dream.
 
Thank you for your response @Fornad it's some clarification that was dearly needed for a pretty one-sided discussion on our side. I'd also like to apologize for the personal attacks that some members of our community have said in this thread as they are unwarrented. I think they come from people being stunned and confused by this drama over the supposed merger. And I believe some of this could have been avoided if this merger had been brought to light earlier by the two of you (finrod/fornad). Our community is based on constant communication between the different levels of staff, artists and other members and so it should be no surprise that this drama is the result of a cloak and dagger approach to creating a massive merger. If Finrod had come and made a post on the staff forums to open up discussion on this topic he could have seen our responses, whether they be positive or negative. This might have been perceived by the two of you as throwing the project away to being cancelled by our community, but ideas of this magnitude take time and as stated by FInrod and yourself, we could take baby steps to work on relations between our servers. All in all I agree with Credoo in the way that this drama has shown us the divisions that still exist between our servers, but it has allowed many of the greivances to be laid out in a way that we can see them and work on possibly fixing them in the future.
 
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