Lower Moria: Goblin Invasion Tunnel (Planning Fix Suggestion)

[creeperpig0]

Recently I was looking through the plans of Moria in the Plot World (/warp MoriaPlans Plotbuild) and I decided to go down into the plans of future Lower Moria. I found a "Goblin Invasion Tunnel" that I had seen a couple of times in the plans before but hadn't fully looked at it in-depth. I noticed how every single one of the goblin tunnels ends in "collapsed." This made me think of the goblin tunnels throughout the Misty Mountains, such as Goblin Town.

I thought it'd be a really interesting choice to have the tunnels shown in the plans not just be collapsed, but instead go out into a goblin dwelling (and most likely one of the future goblin strongholds) in the Misty Mountains or even Goblin Town.

This could be accomplished by creating a tp zone at the end of one of the tunnels shown (preferably only one, and probably through a small gap in a pile of rubble) after going perhaps 100 blocks further than the current planning shows, and another 100 blocks or so after the tp. I personally think that adding a new, 4th entrance (after the main 2 and Durin's Tower) could be a fun little addition.

I know that adding something this major to the build that isn't supported by hard evidence is somewhat odd, but I think that we can assume (as did this planner) that there were other goblin tunnels, being that everywhere surrounding Moria was crawling with goblins. Now, of course, I am aware that the construction of Lower Moria is far, far, far away from now, but now is a better time than ever to change the planning, being that there hasn't been any actual regular-scaled building that would have to be changed or destroyed.

I'd love to hear any of your opinions on this suggestion, and the upsides or downsides that you can think of!

 

[Raffyyy]

This is a really interesting topic actually, and I'm glad you bought it up!


Personally, I believe that there would have been a network of tunnels, like you say, however I don't think they would have been as extensive as you're suggesting

I did some research into this, and here's what I came up with.



First of all, it's paramount that the difference between Goblins and Orcs is mitigated. There was little if any difference between the 2 creatures, as summed up in a reply by u/Berrytrunk to this reddit post.

This was something that confused me for a while. Recent games, movies and fantasies generally have orcs and goblins as being to different races. However in LOTR and most fantasies before or near its time there is no difference between the two. Each is merely a different name used by people of different geographic upbringing come together. Like Soda and Pop.

For the sake of this post, I'll address the creatures as Goblins. Anywhere such as in quotes that describes Orcs should be viewed the same as a description of Goblins.


That aside, we first need to look at Goblins themselves. They would in my opinion not have been able to produce great tunnels that could survive thousands of years. The tunnels themselves would’ve been rudimentary, as Goblins were not the capable miners that Dwarves were, as seen in this Letter from Tolkien, that describes Orcs (Goblins) explicitly

they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types

In particular the adjectives "degraded and repulsive" suggests that they were incapable of carrying out large tasks, due to their physical stature and lack of ability.


Secondly, we need to remember that Moria wasn’t deserted yesterday. At the time the server is set, it had been ruined for thousands of years. Even the most mighty and well built halls in Moria would’ve been ruined to a moderate - large extent. A lot of Moria was inaccessible by the time the fellowship passed through it. It’s worth remembering as well that the Dwarves were “the creation of Aulë”. Obviously Moria was very grande, big and designed to house an entire race of people, and as a result, structural integrity was key. The halls of Moria were designed to be strong, however by the time the Fellowship passed through, as stated before, was ruined, and halls and passageways would’ve collapsed. If these corridors had collapsed, then it clearly suggests the tunnels created by the physically inferior Goblins would also have done. These tunnels being made by the dwarves would also be unlikely, as they were in the lower, less inhabited depths of Moria, and also, the dwarves would have no need to create nor interest in creating, tunnels to Goblin Town.


Finally, we need to have a look at Geography. If you have a look at a mileage graph from both The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, you can work out distances. In The Hobbit, Thorin’s company travelled 102 miles after resting in Rivendell to the point of losing Bilbo in Goblin Town. The Fellowship travelled 376 miles from Rivendell to the point where the Chamber of Mazarbul is found. Assuming that the routes were both precisely straight from RIvendell (which of course they weren’t), we can conclude, using basic Pythagoras, that Moria and Goblin town were 361.9 miles away from each other. This is a hell of a long way. Of course, this is marked from the said locations above, and in reality would’ve been shorter, but not by much. The Goblins would not have the incentive to build a tunnel as long as that, unless they explicitly knew that something of note was there. Of course Moria was, but I doubt they knew an exact figure on how long they had to keep digging for. Even though Goblins appear as wondering creatures, the fact that they are somewhat absent from even nearby locations like Gollum’s Cave, suggests that they didn’t have the desire to massively expand out of their settlement at the time. As well, the dwarves would not have had the desire to increasingly span northwards. As described by Gandalf in the Fellowship of the Ring,

“The lodes lead away north towards Caradhras, and down to darkness. The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep”

The heart of Moria was under Caradhras, still quite far away from Goblin Town, and we get the sense from the above quote that the dwarves much preferred to dig downwards, rather than across.


All in all, it would be foolish to completely rule out Goblin Tunnels, as by the late Third Age, it’d be a very reasonable assumption that there would be a network of Goblin Tunnels, maybe even a small settlement, just a large complex of passages that would span under the entire length of the Misty Mountains would be illogical.
I know this has been a rather long post, but with Moria being such a hot topic, as well as important project, background context and knowledge is vital.

 

[Jonatanknalle]

First of all, it's paramount that the difference between Goblins and Orcs is mitigated. There was little if any difference between the 2 creatures, as summed up in a reply by u/Berrytrunk to this reddit post.

There is no difference at all between the two. In fact according to the hobbit orc is not an english word and therefore translated to goblin, orc is the hobbits' form of the name.

 

[creeperpig0]

This is a really interesting topic actually, and I'm glad you bought it up!


Personally, I believe that there would have been a network of tunnels, like you say, however I don't think they would have been as extensive as you're suggesting

I did some research into this, and here's what I came up with.



First of all, it's paramount that the difference between Goblins and Orcs is mitigated. There was little if any difference between the 2 creatures, as summed up in a reply by u/Berrytrunk to this reddit post.




For the sake of this post, I'll address the creatures as Goblins. Anywhere such as in quotes that describes Orcs should be viewed the same as a description of Goblins.


That aside, we first need to look at Goblins themselves. They would in my opinion not have been able to produce great tunnels that could survive thousands of years. The tunnels themselves would’ve been rudimentary, as Goblins were not the capable miners that Dwarves were, as seen in this Letter from Tolkien, that describes Orcs (Goblins) explicitly



In particular the adjectives "degraded and repulsive" suggests that they were incapable of carrying out large tasks, due to their physical stature and lack of ability.


Secondly, we need to remember that Moria wasn’t deserted yesterday. At the time the server is set, it had been ruined for thousands of years. Even the most mighty and well built halls in Moria would’ve been ruined to a moderate - large extent. A lot of Moria was inaccessible by the time the fellowship passed through it. It’s worth remembering as well that the Dwarves were “the creation of Aulë”. Obviously Moria was very grande, big and designed to house an entire race of people, and as a result, structural integrity was key. The halls of Moria were designed to be strong, however by the time the Fellowship passed through, as stated before, was ruined, and halls and passageways would’ve collapsed. If these corridors had collapsed, then it clearly suggests the tunnels created by the physically inferior Goblins would also have done. These tunnels being made by the dwarves would also be unlikely, as they were in the lower, less inhabited depths of Moria, and also, the dwarves would have no need to create nor interest in creating, tunnels to Goblin Town.


Finally, we need to have a look at Geography. If you have a look at a mileage graph from both The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, you can work out distances. In The Hobbit, Thorin’s company travelled 102 miles after resting in Rivendell to the point of losing Bilbo in Goblin Town. The Fellowship travelled 376 miles from Rivendell to the point where the Chamber of Mazarbul is found. Assuming that the routes were both precisely straight from RIvendell (which of course they weren’t), we can conclude, using basic Pythagoras, that Moria and Goblin town were 361.9 miles away from each other. This is a hell of a long way. Of course, this is marked from the said locations above, and in reality would’ve been shorter, but not by much. The Goblins would not have the incentive to build a tunnel as long as that, unless they explicitly knew that something of note was there. Of course Moria was, but I doubt they knew an exact figure on how long they had to keep digging for. Even though Goblins appear as wondering creatures, the fact that they are somewhat absent from even nearby locations like Gollum’s Cave, suggests that they didn’t have the desire to massively expand out of their settlement at the time. As well, the dwarves would not have had the desire to increasingly span northwards. As described by Gandalf in the Fellowship of the Ring,



The heart of Moria was under Caradhras, still quite far away from Goblin Town, and we get the sense from the above quote that the dwarves much preferred to dig downwards, rather than across.


All in all, it would be foolish to completely rule out Goblin Tunnels, as by the late Third Age, it’d be a very reasonable assumption that there would be a network of Goblin Tunnels, maybe even a small settlement, just a large complex of passages that would span under the entire length of the Misty Mountains would be illogical.
I know this has been a rather long post, but with Moria being such a hot topic, as well as important project, background context and knowledge is vital.

I like your approach to the connection to Goblin Town. You explained it well, and it seems pretty correct that the goblins would not have been able to or willing to go so far in their expanse of tunnels, but there are a few things that stand out to me:

1.) Many, many, many strongholds of the goblins existed throughout the Misty Mountains, and Goblin Town is most definitely not the only possibility for an entrance.

2.) It is known that Sauron encouraged the goblins to go into Moria, being a strategically crucial location, meaning that they likely would attempt to create multiple entrances to make a more convenient route to the nearby goblin settlements, such as those near the Redhorn Pass (Like this one along the Footprints):

I think that somewhere remote would fit well, preferably somewhere somewhat close to the latitude of "/warp exampleglacier", but a lower altitude to ensure there not being year-round snowing-in for the goblins. Somewhere closer would be more reasonable, but I fear that this may cause people to just look above one of the gates and see the hole, which is far too revealing.

3.) The planning shows a goblin invasion tunnel. What does this mean? That, at least on our server, the goblins have a will, and ability, to access Moria by their own means. Clearly, this was before the fall of Moria, as the tunnel was "sealed", meaning that the dwarves were around to seal it. This leads to my fourth point:

4.) If goblins were already doing this, you can imagine that this would continue when there were also being enforced into it by Sauron. The long-term existence of the tunnel would, as far as I see it, not cause it to not exist anymore, due to the goblins re-inhabiting their old invasion tunnels after the fall of Moria.

 

[NicTheFifth]

also @Raffyyy correction, Moria wasn't abandonned for thousands of years, just a thousand.

 

[Jonatanknalle]

also @Raffyyy correction, Moria wasn't abandonned for thousands of years, just a thousand.

”just”

 

[creeperpig0]

Still, what do you guys think of this idea, and is there any possibility of this change actually happening?

 

[NicTheFifth]

I think it will be possible, however this is so far in the future that it has little use making a decision already.

 

[creeperpig0]

I think it will be possible, however this is so far in the future that it has little use making a decision already.

That's exactly why I posted this. By the time we get to building it, we'll all have completely forgotten about this conversation. If the planning is changed now, then we can't possibly forget, because the build follows planning, or at least tries to.

 

[NicTheFifth]

The thing is that such a thing would make more sense of doing afterwards, rather than beforehand. We can check where to create these tunnels to detail boring areas of the lower layer.

 

[creeperpig0]

I see.