• Welcome to MCME!

    Minecraft Middle Earth is a Minecraft community that recreates the world described by JRR Tolkien and his writings. Everyone can participate in organized events in which we collaborate to create major landmarks, terrain, caves, castles, towns, farms and more.

    To get started, visit The New Player Guide

    Joining the server

    Joining the server can be done straight away, but you will have to pass the New Player Quiz. Use the The New Player Guide to get acquainted with our community.

    IP: build.mcmiddleearth.com

Two New Ranks Coming to MCME!

Right, so.

Before I start, I just wanna say congrats to all you guys, and I really commend what you've done. You're all lovely members of the community and really deserve the rank, so don't think in any way I'm trying to put you down, because number 1, You know I love you, 2, I hate making people upset. Really solid well done Also, I'm not condoning this decision in anyway, as for 99% of it, I think it's a really good decision that'll work out in everyone's benefice.

I'm gonna start positive, and that is I can see the potential in the rank. Organisation is an important thing that few have (myself included), so organised people doing the organisation will definitely result in more organised organisation!

My only issues are with the rank's concept. And that has already been addressed by others, so I'll keep it brief.

What I do agree with is "rewarding players". The guys who have received the rank have all worked for it, and just sweeping their effort under the rug is downright wrong.

My issue is rewarding with them with such a high rank. Not at all the fact that they don't deserve the rank because if you haven't figured by now I believe all of those who have earned the rank deserve it. The fact I'm addressing is responsibility. It's a very large amount of responsibility, and I'm not saying that the above aren't capable of using it wisely, because I have no doubt that they are, but it's a large chunk that is taken off the Valar's shoulders, and that isn't necessarily the best thing. Part of being a Valar is the responsibility that comes with it, and with responsibility comes respect. I'm not saying that you guys will be any less respected, but it's literally let's make our lives a bit easier. I also know sometimes real life events take over, and it's good to have a backup. In that respect this rank is the best thing since sliced bread. But what I'm saying is my issue is giving these guys a massive change, with added pressures and traits.

I also see what you mention about it being a staff rank. While I don't disagree with the rank being a staff rank, coz, well, it's kind of gotta be lol. What I don't agree with however is people being rewarded with a staff rank, Which links back to my first point. On that basis I won't elaborate on it anymore, but I will say this, If it was anyone different, would it be different?

All In all, I seem to be ranting about the rank being a reward. I fully well know it isn't, and in fact these guys have been chosen not just because "they're active and have been around a while so deserve something in return", but because they're personalities match very much what the rank is, and visa versa, the rank is tailored around them, so they're the perfect candidates for the specific rank.

And I'll finish on a positive note. And I'll say these are only my concerns, and they're only minute. They're there, but a minority. The mahjority of my thoughts is wishing these guys a massive good luck, and how I couldn't be any prouder for them

Good Job Guys
 
superlolster said:
Also, was wondering why AC need to chime in here as it doesn't affect their server in any way whatsoever, but glad to see you guys still care about MCME
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How Rude.
I joined MCME in 2012 and I still consider myself a member in some form. Just because i'm not active doesn't mean you have to try to hurt my feelings. ( ཀ ʖ̯ ཀ)
Not the type of behavior I expected from the Executive Assistant Head Builder in Training.
 
You have some heavy accusations right there. I don't see why you have to escalate it so far and support the obvious meme-age which Beat et al are pulling. If I was one of these people, who all they are doing is helping out the server even more, and then get called pets I would feel very offended. You say no non-staff who had no say in the decision liked the idea, well actually it seems people do, because got likes and most often you have people post when they are against something than more when they agree or don't care.

You think it went through staff smoothly, well it really did not and a lot was talked and changed, so please I know you like to throw your shade with "smart" remarks, but just realize how disrespectful you are being.

The beginning reason is simple: the Head Designer/Builder rank is too much for one person to complete all the tasks that come with it. It's true this was not always the case, it started out right as it stated in the description: Ranks and Duties and Terms and rules however when Credoo took the position he expanded it, then when Finrod took it from Credoo he expanded it even more and this is because of our expanding community. However its time that we give these task and delegate them to others and not have the Head Builder be a burden. I as all of you, want to have fun on this server as well and not type up more than a thousand words daily in replies about various subjects.

Also the point you made about it being good in the long run makes little to no sense, if its good in the long run its good. I understand there might be some retaliation at first, it's a bigger change than we have had in a very long time. This isn't me being that person who says things "denial are the first stages of depression", however we expected retaliation as there was some in staff. However in the end we agreed I needed more help, and so do other Valar and even though maybe not everyone liked the idea of two new ranks, the roles had to be made in some manner. The reason the Valar in the end chose ranks was because of the permissions they needed and also as a sign, these people are not being rewarded staff rank, I would make them staff regardless because of the work they have done in the community, however they would not fit in Designer or Enforcer. So when I said, 'rank given to staff who are ....' its because they deserved staff and so have now staff, but not part of the designer or enforcement teams.

@NicTheFifth the Head Builder before all this, was supposed to help other people get to the rank of artist and foreman and also somewhat find new candidates. .I do not have the time with the rest I am doing, to spend large amount or any time for this. We need designated people. Why don't we have a second Head Designer/Builder you might ask. Well, when both me and Finrod were currently Head Designer/Builder, I would be doing all the things that the Head Builder is described to do (in the forums) plus a little bit more and Finrod did all the extra stuff which is not in the description but because of perms, and other factors those tasks fell to the Head Designer. So... in short I was doing what the Head Builder does and Finrod was not and so technically not a Head Builder, so something has to fill that gap and this, partly came, with the Head Developer role. However, still there was a lot left over, as Eriol was already doing a lot in development and just got a lot more.

If you want to know why I picked Quanta, I may share it to you privately. I don't share why I choose some people for Designer over others publicly so same applies here. All relates to in-game when it comes down to it. If you need to talk to the person who is organizing events, or the person who is taking those renders on the server, are their actions not involved with the server? Well, they are. I don't think there will be any more in the foreseeable future, however as I said: the number of official roles really comes with the time the community is in. (As I said before) Designers lead builders within their project, they do not lead in making amend to the rank and the ranks as a whole. These ranks are staff because of the importance that they have on this server. A lot of interaction, communication and organization has to be done through the staff ranks and how do you recommend roles which are to view staff material, interact with staff at a level higher than before but not be staff themselves.

Pieter, I said this so many times, you cannot... CANNOT... work your way up to staff. You are chosen by staff, if you apply, its only like a look at me. About 35% of all applications for staff are not even discussed. And I cannot believe you are agreeing with Beat, you have no idea what these people do (because it was previously unofficial) and you think you can go on to say they are just doing it for the color... what the cheek you have to say that.

Raf I totally respect your opinion, however I am going to end this monstrosity of a post with these players were not rewarded with staff for their actions but more that their actions proved they could become staff in our community.
 
I am going to state my reasons against these roles/ranks, Im not personally attacking any of the people chosen for the roles im just disagreeing with the need to add them in the first place.

MORE RANKS/ROLES:
My main point of annoyance and I believe most peoples are looking at this thread is that its adding even more complexity to our rank system. I currently quite like the system we have as it splits up the sections of the community sensibly most of the time and creates a system in which people work to get to the top. However we are a very small server and there is no denying we are ever going to significantly grow in the future unless Minecraft becomes popular or LotR/Hobbit. Currently I would say we have around 40-50 active members who have a rank and it will most likely stay around this number, this should mean our rank system should be very simple as too many will mean everyone is split into very small group and the system looks way more complex and confusing to new players (which you claim is one of the reasons it was introduced). I already thought the badges were a bit too much especially as they begin to blur the defining roles of each rank but now with these 7 new roles/2 new ranks its becoming extremely complex. Imagine a new player joining and seeing so many ranks, its already quite hard explaining the rank system as it is now as with Foreman/Commoner it is no longer a pathway simply of "Social" and "Build", we are increasingly heading towards a system in which everyone will have their own rank/badge combo. I really stress this is a bad idea, we have so many more members back in 2013/2014 and even back then they decided to make the rank system less complex. These complex systems do not promote the simple step by step promotion system we once had which favoured new players trying to understand the ranks and progression on the server, all it does is make the server seem more closed in on its already founded members as we increasingly have more unique roles. I do understand you want to allow for more freedom for each role but if you want to focus on bringing in new players I believe this is the wrong path to take. All this does is appeal to already known members looking to make themselves stand out more in the community.

WHY A RANK?
I also dont understand why we need to add a rank for these roles, I believe the roles can still work without a rank and sometimes the roll is not needed at all.

Operations Assistant: This role can easily be fixed by choosing either a designer or enforcer to handle the responsibility of it, you can still have your candidate do it why not just promote them to staff. You already said they have been staff before and that staff apps are not always needed. The person will know their role in the community and will be staff therefore being able to handle the task. Just like a project leader, they have a specific task in their rank but arent then given a new unique rank for it. I also worry this is quite a privileged task, you are basically having access to all valar documents and taking a massive role. The description you gave makes me seem like the role is bordering to being another valar/head rank with the amount of perms they have. I like the idea though just dont need a new role for it.

Builder Assistant: Same again really, I understand if you cannot handle all the roles of Head Rank yourself but do not want to give up power in handing it out but surely someone already staff can do this? If you want the candidate to do it why do they need staff, im pretty sure you can give them special access to the docs still even if they arent staff. They claim to already do it all its just a rank to show it. Which is pointless as this just sounds like power grabbing and weakens the reason behind the rank and perms given with it

Guide Assistant: Same again, why do we need to give someone a role/rank and also staff. From what I see they already do most of this, if you need to represent guides in the staff ranks surely the Head Guide should do this. I would expect the same from my head etc. All these assistant ranks seem to be already being done just are being introduced now as rank for the sake of showing they do it. Which in my opinion is not enough to introduce a rank. I dont want to say we shouldn't recognise their effort, but loads of players artists, guides and foreman all put in lots of work which is sometimes overlooked but dont demand a rank for it.

Media Assistant: This is one of the more interesting ones which I like the idea, it would be great to have an organised Media Team who can report to the Heads with ideas and produce videos/media to promote the server. However once again why is staff needed and also a rank. Plenty of people have made videos in the past for the server including myself and I can do it fine without staff perms. At the end of the day being part of the media team is going to mean nothing in game as all the work is behind scenes. So why create a role for it in game seems pointless.

I like the idea of the Assistant roles, it helps weaken the load for the heads which they always moan about. However the need to give them the rank and staff is pointless as they claim to already be doing it. Surely they would be happy to continue do what they are doing. At the end of the day lots of players do sometimes jobs outside their rank description but dont need a rank to prove it. I think the same should be used here, I congratulate the people for contributing in their jobs but I would not introduce a rank for the sake of it. Especially with the system being complex. Also giving them staff for communication seems weak, I once said this about Foreman needing access to designer stuff for knowing about jobs etc. but was told little goes on really behind the scenes. In the end they were right, communication can sometimes be hard but as long as both sides are persistent its fine. I understand its a different circumstance but from what I hear they all seem to do most of it without it so why is complete access to all staff things necessarily. Access to docs doesn't mean staff surely?

Artisan Lead Builder: The specific role inside this rank confuses me. The majority of the role is focused it seems on organising artists promotions, isn't this already being done by the artist committee? Cant a select few designers do this with the Head Builder. This system seemed to work quite well so the change already seems unnecessary, however if they need to be included why a rank. The second part is about organising within the artist rank for meeting and basically representing them. I do actually like this as the Artist rank is very big and full of different voices which are sometimes unheard. However cant this be organised by the artists themselves, with them picking a leader to represent them maybe in staff meeting or something with them keeping the artist rank but being recognised as the representative of the group. I do like the idea but I wouldn't support a fully new rank for it.

Foreman Lead Builder: Once again this rank is basically someone who represents the foreman to the staff, however I dont think it works in this case. There are very few foreman and most of them already get on well with staff so their ideas are already expressed quite well within the higher ranks. I only really speak for myself but I feel like my ideas get heard thanks to those connections. When it comes to organising the apps couldn't a similar thing be done with the guides in which the whole rank organises promotions etc. We all know how foreman works so we know what to look for and can help/assist willing people. The other things done like getting jobs from designers cant all foreman do this if they are proactive. The partner stuff can also be done without a rank for it aswell and the tb stuff. Just some ideas on how this could be done without a rank really.

Designer Lead Builder: Again, I like the idea but cant the designer do this without a new rank. I already thought the designers already decided as a group on designer apps. And the rest seems to be behind the scene stuff like organising build days which doesn't require a rank to do. Surely the project leader could do this.

Im not really for the Foreman or Designer builder role but the Artist one I do not mind. Don't really think they would need a rank but having someone represent the artists in staff meeting and maybe organising them would be a nice idea.

Lack of Discussion
Finally I would like to ask why non-staff ranks were not allowed in the discussion. You say you knew there would be backlash already so why not discuss it with us in a public meeting. The badges and foreman/commoner were discussed so why could this not be. This worries me as it seems you are now just introducing new things under your own decisions without allowing for discussion throughout the entire community. Maybe you could explain it better without the backlash. if people already knew before its introduction, its also much harder to get rid of the rank (which I doubt will happen anyway) now if opposition is strong. I hope this isn't a trend of the decisions all being told to us without discussions before implementation.

I dont really expect any change to come from this but I hope this provides some alternatives to these rank/roles, because some of them make sense I just dont think it is the right decision to make a staff rank out of them. I personally believe making the server more complex with ranks only creates a system which is more anti new players. I feel like we are taking the wrong path by making these changes.
 

idk what the AC guys are always doing here when something like this happens, but they usually have good points which might want to be considered. Probably because they can speak more freely since they don't hold the responsibilities of a rank.
I kinda skipped the nice talk and got straight to the point this time, but there's quite some things that I think are messed up about this new system, I've said most of those to u in DM a while ago when it got leaked. But I don't think I've said anything really disrespectful or offensive in my posts, except maybe the word choice of 'pets'. I think it's weird that Super is a candidate for the builder assistant rank, firstly because she has stated herself that she doesn't really build (on another discord) and secondly because she just said that she doesn't have much time for MCME and that irl circumstances hindered her from coming online. This is not a personal attack to Super at all, btw I think she has acted quite professionally and fitting for this rank the last few weeks in means of words, but builder assistant? Not just for Super, but in my (not so humble) opinion there are some remarks to the other candidates as well.

I understand that there's been a lot of discussion about it in staff meetings, but I'm still super surprised that the idea has actually been accepted. Nothing disrespectful there.

Ofc Valar need help, but that's what the designers and artists already are for right? Despite all the explanation I still think there's no point in making new ranks for just this purpose, to connect Valar and other ranks. Valar are able to talk to artists, and if not, then there's the designer and even foreman intermediate step.

With 'being a good idea in the long run' I meant that even if the ranks are a good idea (after all this retaliation) there would be another drawback, that is that (like the AC guys stated) the ranks could just be another 'my color is higher than yours' issue.

You cannot work your way up to staff? You've never said this before, at least not to me. I know there are designer candidates that can be discussed by staff before they actually apply, but afaik the final stage is always the person filling in the application. I didn't even say that staff applicants are just doing it for the color, dunno where you got that from... But it's partly true that once some persons, once they reach a rank (doesn't have to be staff) look down on other ppl. This isn't just me thinking this, even one of the Valar once said this to me.

I feel sorry for you that this replying to all the people disagreeing is tiring for you, and I don't think any of us mean it personally or anything. I can see that you're getting stressed out a bit by these comments, but it's just that the majority of the ppl disagree. Maybe just reconsider these new ranks
 
Yeah. Let's leave it here

Opinions are opinions, but I guess we've gotta live with it now, and that isn't a bad thing at all.

As I've said, a huge congrats to those selected, may you serve the community even more so than you have already. And also, nobody had said this so far, but a somewhat premature congrats, well done, handshake and thank you to you Bwot. If this works out, and I'm sure it will, then it'll be your brainchild. You've worked hard to make the ranks, let that not be put to shame
 
I am not going to argue anymore.
-you say a majority of people don’t agree with it but that’s not true
-idc about the what the ac guys say, their points are on stirring up stuff, their points are quick little fiery up facts that don’t look at anything as a whole
-designers do help but that is in projects and building, their role is not for non-project/building topics which these new roles are
-Yes referring to anybody as pets and saying you can’t beleive how the staff team came to this decision as if we are idiots is offensive in any cultural
-the comment about that I made about reaching staff is false and you can only get in with a recommendation has been true since the beginning, ask credoo if you doubt
-re read what the builder assistant does and you can see precisely that the role has no direct influence on projects or has to do with building but just aids what I do. The name was made because she helps manage the builder ranks files and other things related to me managing the billing aspect on the server. Also pardon me if there are mistakes in this text, writing it on a phone while watching the match.
 
I would love to have a public meeting discussing this further, but if you want to discuss it all here, here are somethings that I'm still not conviced by or would like some more information about:
  • The possible server expansion you were talking about and how that would work.
  • The reason as to why foremen need management, jobs are a thing we try to schedule in, but you've seen how hard it is to schedule stuff like a meeting, of course this is about more people, but often your live just is unpredictable and I don't want to be responsible for dissapointing people.
  • The reason as to why artists need a seperate meeting? I 'd asume foreman and designers would be involved in this aswel, which would also capture the interest of other ranks and in the end turn into a public meeting. I'd rather see something less specific like a builder meeting which wouldn't focus on stuff that goes on in public meetings but would focus on every aspect of the projects that are currently going on. I don't think this would need recording or much setup, I'd say each person makes a little list of what they're doing, what they want to say or change and sent that to the head designer who could then just go off the list. The idea of the artist lead could work for this aswel as you intended.
  • What you mean by the artist workshops?
  • How you would improve certain builder ranks and what this would mean for us builders? I suppose you have certain ideas if these roles are to carry them out and improve them.
  • Conflicts within the role does this mean only between members of the same role or between a member of a certain role and any other person?
  • What kind of conflicts these would be as I'd think more serious one should still go to enforcers or people who are the best at solving conflicts, as I do not think these people were chosen for that certain aspect.
  • Why the hell do you watch football?
 
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Like always, keeping stuff from public view and just do it without any questions from the actual building community wether people like it or not. Tbh i'd do that.
 
Ruben's got a point. We from AC (altho i'm not even active there tbf) make jokes, but we're simultaneously serious.
Creating such a complex hierarchy will probably only end up hindering your build progress.

For example, take a look at how simple ranks on Westeroscraft are compared to yours. An older server that has a substantially larger player base than MCME.
  • Guest: This is the default starting rank. Whilst Guests are unable to alter the map, they are free to engage with builders, and explore the various cities and towns across Westeros.

  • NewBuilder, [N]-Builder: Also called Probation Builder, or Probie. They have permissions to build, but are required to meet certain requirements. An experienced builder assists them during their first weeks of being a builder, ensuring that they get to grips with the community.
  • Builder: The server's main contributors. They create most of the content by hand.

  • Builders with Editor Lite, [E]-Lites: Builders can apply for limited WorldEdit perms to use for terraforming (usually on a small scale) their own projects.
  • Editors: These are builders with permissions for WorldEdit and VoxelSniper. They handle minor worldediting requests on behalf of builders, as well as large terraforming projects such as rivers, mountain ranges etc.
  • Moderators: Handle the administration of the server. They reply to builder applications, organise and moderate content creation, serve justice and officially represent the community.
  • Coders: The technical backbone of the server, they maintain the complex workings 'behind the scenes.'
  • Administrators: The founders and of the server, they are in control of the finances and hardware.

Obviously users have roles beyond what is described in their rank. But the advantage of not giving them a specific rank for it is it doesn't confine them, and allows them to be more fluid in picking and choosing the responsibilities they take on.

You can also knock on Ardacraft all you want, but the ranking system there works well. The community as a whole is smaller, but the number of active building members is actually pretty similar size to MCME. And there's only 5 real Ranks, Guest/Builder(+)/Moderator/Admin/Developer.

Responsibilities are ceded to lots of users regardless of rank. Whe does Terrain work but he's just a builder. Micah leads the Beornings and he's a Moderator. Beat's a temporary Admin but he's just a Builder. Snailriot manages the official Youtube account and he's just a Guest who's basically inactive except when he films videos.

While I truly love making jokes about this system, you guys really are shooting yourselves in the foot I think. Maybe it'll work out, but I really doubt it. And I totally agree with what Ruben said about this new system being divisive. MCME seems to nurture a hostile atmosphere where users jockey for favor and ranks. Another advantage of having minimal ranks is that Users only take on responsibilities because they want to, not because they think it will get them a fancy rank.

P.s: @BWOT we do make memes, so with our advice take it or leave it. But you'd be pretty naive to ignore any serious advice from another server that objectively runs quite well in regards to build progress.
 
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Well then, let's stop arguing and do some actual discussion. So basically: the assistant ranks are administrative ranks, like secretaries that keep track of the projects. If not, then what's a better 1-line description? If yes, why not let the project staff do this by themselves? I know that most project leaders have done that quite poorly in the past and that this is a recognized issue, but then just force them to do so. Some dictatorship would do good there, instead of giving other players an additional new rank, so they can figure out by asking 10 different ppl what is going on in the project and passing that over to the Valar. Quite the epitome of bureaucracy.
If that's how it is. I might be wrong with my interpretation, but these new ranks are quite vague rn.
 
First of I want to ask you to keep the banter to a minimum and posts on point.

Glov I think you have some valid points. Although structurally MCME is different from Westeroscraft and Ardacraft there are similarity's. I to prefer a minimalist rank system keeps it clean and easy to manage.
But ever since Finrod took over the role of head designer from me years ago, he has been expanding the tasks he has been doing. And bwot continued that trend to the point where there is to much for one person to deal with. So we where looking for a solution.
You mention that ac runs with simple roles and people just acting on responsibility that can work and is kinda how I used to run designers. Its a lot less formal but can work with a small "tight" group of people.

Bwot's approach is doing this more formal and giving them titles and ranks with the added responsibility. One can argue that hierarchy will become to complex and it will create an competitive atmosphere but I guess time will tell. Personally I believe people who chase ranks for ranks will be competitive regardless of how many ranks there are and they will go for power without grasping with what responsibility it comes.

In the past when we removed the member rank we had a whole lot of backlash while that rank was nothing more then a recognition rank for someone who is active and liked on the server. Admitting our fault and bringing back that rank in my opinion a good thing even though it might have cluttered the ranks a bit.

All the roles/ranks that are given where already being for filled by the people appointed to the roles (as far as I am aware). With their new roles they are able to access certain parts of our server that will help them in their task. We will have to see if it works out the way Bwot envisions it and if it does not create more gaps between ranks.

My goal still remains to support the other Valar in their tasks and roles and jump in where I see I can be of assistance. Do I need the rank Valar for that? Maybe not. But Finrod and Dyno at the time wanted me to be Valar so I was able to help them out more efficiently.

I do support Bwot even though i have some doubts in his plan, I think its worth a shot if he trusts in its success. Regardless of how it turns out we will learn from the experience and I believe that is most valuable.
 
Pointless to argue, the fact that this system made it to this stage just means that it was going to be implemented regardless of opinion.
 
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