@Finrod_Amandil U are right of course, my exemple wasn't the best.

And i didn't understand exactly, what you mean with : "this meeting is not this public "staff" meeting." What do you mean ? Is it a public meeting next friday ?

slaMoria said:

@Finrod_Amandil U are right of course, my exemple wasn't the best.

And i didn't understand exactly, what you mean with : "this meeting is not this public "staff" meeting." What do you mean ? Is it a public meeting next friday ?

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He means that the meeting won't count as a staff meeting, which he'll host separately.

Olwe said:

He means that the meeting won't count as a staff meeting, which he'll host separately.

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thanks, i thought that this meeting won't be public.

Kisk with regards to your questions. The 3 players selected for ban were the majority (with the exception of Glov who was already banned) of those ranting and/or venting their emotions regarding enforcers. Paying particular attention to 2 of the Enforcer in general which in my view fell under the following ToS area.
E. General
The following rules and/or directives are always in use.

• Harassment, bullying, intimidation or abuse will not be tolerated.

When the altered facebook image surfaced a line had been crossed in my opinion. The enforcers do not have the means to pinpoint who exactly created the image but became concerned anyone in the chat could use this image to cause serious damage. In the past when infractions are occur from players involved in the build side of our server ie. Artists/Designers a discussion between Finrod and myself usually happens. As mentioned in my prior post the timing of the entire incident couldn't have been worse.

My 3 mistakes were

1. Not taking the time to do a proper follow up investigation regarding the incident
2. Not immediately informing Finrod of the situation, and details that occurred
3. Not telling Delmana to use my name in the Ban report since the decision was ultimately mine to make.

I totally own these mistakes and apologize for them, however as I mentioned before the part that disturbs me the most is that through this whole mess not one of the players who were in that "channel" saw fit to contact me via PM or by some other means. If for example the creator of the altered image had come forth and it had not been one of the three in question the bans would have been immediately overturned.

With regards to memes.... I'll be quite honest about this whole meme posts that MCME forums find creeping up constantly. I personally find the memes at best, "attempts at humor" or at worst (particularily when using famous political/social personalities/ideology) social commentaries meant to illicit a negative or confrontational reaction. My general policy was (unless it's blatant pornography or the target player in question submits a report stating they're being harassed) was to ignore them as not worth my time bothering with them.

DynoDaring said:

Kisk with regards to your questions. The 3 players selected for ban were the majority (with the exception of Glov who was already banned) of those ranting and/or venting their emotions regarding enforcers. Paying particular attention to 2 of the Enforcer in general which in my view fell under the following ToS area.
E. General
The following rules and/or directives are always in use.

• Harassment, bullying, intimidation or abuse will not be tolerated.

When the altered facebook image surfaced a line had been crossed in my opinion. The enforcers do not have the means to pinpoint who exactly created the image but became concerned anyone in the chat could use this image to cause serious damage. In the past when infractions are occur from players involved in the build side of our server ie. Artists/Designers a discussion between Finrod and myself usually happens. As mentioned in my prior post the timing of the entire incident couldn't have been worse.

My 3 mistakes were

1. Not taking the time to do a proper follow up investigation regarding the incident
2. Not immediately informing Finrod of the situation, and details that occurred
3. Not telling Delmana to use my name in the Ban report since the decision was ultimately mine to make.

I totally own these mistakes and apologize for them, however as I mentioned before the part that disturbs me the most is that through this whole mess not one of the players who were in that "channel" saw fit to contact me via PM or by some other means. If for example the creator of the altered image had come forth and it had not been one of the three in question the bans would have been immediately overturned.

With regards to memes.... I'll be quite honest about this whole meme posts that MCME forums find creeping up constantly. I personally find the memes at best, "attempts at humor" or at worst (particularily when using famous political/social personalities/ideology) social commentaries meant to illicit a negative or confrontational reaction. My general policy was (unless it's blatant pornography or the target player in question submits a report stating they're being harassed) was to ignore them as not worth my time bothering with them.

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I appriciate your response but have a few more topics and questions that were left undiscussed. You talk a lot about communicating but basically give players no chance to do so. We were immediatley banned with no warnings of why the ban was incoming or anything. Your lack of initial communication is also quite distirbing. Also im not quite sure why you are quoting mcme rules because these pictures/memes came up on something unrelated to mcme. I cannot recall anytime a player was banned for ranting or lettingg loose their emotions on a separate server, and with no knowlage of who made the pictures it seems much more likely that the enforcment team just wanted rid of us, because i will agree, all of us do push the tos often. This seems even more plaisable as another enforcer attempted to get us banned on a completely diffrent server. Not mcme or arda, but one completely separate from this mess that me yomama and eaglz have all spent consiterable time on. I wanna wrap this up with two questions that were not awnsered and ought to be.

1. Why was i given an unappeal-able ban, and my forum account disabled, while the others were only given appeal-able bans, if this was a temporary ban?
2. How and why did you think banning us with or with no follow up investigation, would solve the conflict?

kisos said:

I appriciate your response but have a few more topics and questions that were left undiscussed. You talk a lot about communicating but basically give players no chance to do so. We were immediatley banned with no warnings of why the ban was incoming or anything. Your lack of initial communication is also quite distirbing. Also im not quite sure why you are quoting mcme rules because these pictures/memes came up on something unrelated to mcme. I cannot recall anytime a player was banned for ranting or lettingg loose their emotions on a separate server, and with no knowlage of who made the pictures it seems much more likely that the enforcment team just wanted rid of us, because i will agree, all of us do push the tos often. This seems even more plaisable as another enforcer attempted to get us banned on a completely diffrent server. Not mcme or arda, but one completely separate from this mess that me yomama and eaglz have all spent consiterable time on. I wanna wrap this up with two questions that were not awnsered and ought to be.

1. Why was i given an unappealable ban, and my forum accout deleted, while the others were only given appealable bans, if this was a temporary ban?
2. How and why did you think banning us with or with no follow up investigation, would solve the conflict?

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I have no opinion what so ever what is right or wrong in this case but I have a few questions, that you also left unanswered.

If you or any of the banned players had any beef with the management or enforcers of the server, was this addressed to the management or enforcers the way you ask they should have addressed it to you? I don't know, so its just a question. I don't say you did but, should you be allowed to act like an ass outside of MCME and have no effect on how you are seen on MCME, private server or not? If I owned this server even if it is not a real job, I would still expect you'd as a former staff member, acting professionally outside MCME too. Even if none of you affected posted any of these images, should you be allowed do endorse illegal behavior? It might not be obvious but cyber bullying is a serious offense that people every day suffer for.

Gimilzagar said:

If you or any of the banned players had any beef with the management or enforcers of the server, was this addressed to the management or enforcers the way you ask they should have addressed it to you?

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i have no clue what this question is asking.

Gimilzagar said:

should you be allowed to act like an ass outside of MCME and have no effect on how you are seen on MCME, private server or not?

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If i act like an ass outside of the mcme server, everyone has every right to see me however they want to. People can think whatever they want, thats not my problem cause frankly i dont care what most people "think" of me. What they should not be able to do is take action against people actively. Messaging, asking us to stop because its cyber bullying and its the wrong thing to do is one thing, that i would be much more inclined to respect your opinion and stop, but taking action without saying anything, just being banned is much different

Gimilzagar said:

If I owned this server even if it is not a real job, I would still expect you'd as a former staff member, acting professionally outside MCME too. Even if none of you affected posted any of these images, should you be allowed do endorse illegal behavior?

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Its a game dude. In my opinion you should not expect me to act professionally, on a different server. The servers are different. That's just my opinion though. This also is not illegal behavior. Its rude and im a jerk and whatever yes, not illegal. We diddnt threaten anyone as far as i know. We may have but as that was not one of the enforcers points as to why we were banned i dont think so.

My first questions basically asks, did you treat the enforcers the way you ask the enforcers to treat you? Did you inform them of this, did you give a heads up, did you in anyway try to distance yourself from it? Or were you guilty of grudge against the enforcers all ready? I think that the q and the staff care deeply how other staff members represent MCME on the outside. While you technically don't break any rules of MCME whilest on other services, you break they're trust, don't you agree? Im no longer a staff and I know too little of the events to have a clear picture. I don't even know what these images depicted so I'm just asking however I can. And truth be told, i want everyone to be treated fairly even if I have no power over that.

Gimilzagar said:

My first questions basically asks, did you treat the enforcers the way you ask the enforcers to treat you? Did you inform them of this, did you give a heads up, did you in anyway try to distance yourself from it? Or were you guilty of grudge against the enforcers all ready? I think that the q and the staff care deeply how other staff members represent MCME on the outside. While you technically don't break any rules of MCME whilest on other services, you break they're trust, don't you agree? Im no longer a staff and I know too little of the events to have a clear picture. I don't even know what these images depicted so I'm just asking however I can. And truth be told, i want everyone to be treated fairly even if I have no power over that.

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I dont think you exactly know how this happened, also he wasnt staff,

I have not claimed it either. but i know there was a disagreement before this happened.

Gimilzagar said:

I have not claimed it either. but i know there was a disagreement before this happened.

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Read this Announcement on the Recent Events on MCME to get the other side of the view (I guess you have already read through this thread

I have and it does not change how I see it. Hence i ask these questions. He wasn't staff at the time of the ban, but he has previously been a staff member, as designer.

Gimilzagar said:

My first questions basically asks, did you treat the enforcers the way you ask the enforcers to treat you? Did you inform them of this, did you give a heads up, did you in anyway try to distance yourself from it? Or were you guilty of grudge against the enforcers all ready? I think that the q and the staff care deeply how other staff members represent MCME on the outside. While you technically don't break any rules of MCME whilest on other services, you break they're trust, don't you agree? Im no longer a staff and I know too little of the events to have a clear picture. I don't even know what these images depicted so I'm just asking however I can. And truth be told, i want everyone to be treated fairly even if I have no power over that.

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I would totally expect the enforcers to have a negative attitude towards me which is fine, ive already expressed my views on that. And of course someone had a grudge on someone else or why would one of us start making rude memes of members. That's not the point to me. The point is the action which I still believe is unjustified. If someone truly wanted jokes to stop being made of them you would think they would address it person to person, not just ban and stop there. On the note of breaking other staff members trust with actions outside of mcme, if it happens it happens, its a problem but should not effect their decisions on situations like these.

I shall not judge whether or not the action was unjust. I think dyno and fins statements speaks for them selves. How can someone expect respect and just judgement when what triggered all of it in the first place was considered poor judgement and unjust actions from someone with a grudge against the Enforcers. Enforcers does unappreciated actions, small and large. Surly they are entitled to do mistakes too. Humiliating people online is considered a crime in many countries, banning someone from a minecraft server is not. Do you see the huge difference in severity on these two actions?

But i will dig no further.

Gimilzagar said:

I shall not judge whether or not the action was unjust. I think dyno and fins statements speaks for them selves. How can someone expect respect and just judgement when what triggered all of it in the first place was considered poor judgement and unjust actions from someone with a grudge against the Enforcers.

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This is good dude. I wont say I enjoy this but its better to sort this stuff out now.I would not consider this digging bad.

I do not expect respect, as ive said about 3 times now, but i do expect just judgement seeing as that is literally the purpose of enforcers, to enforce rules correctly. It is not my job to be mr. nice guy and not be rude. I have already agreed that people on the private server were rude. I would also agree that enforcers are entitled to mistakes too, but so far i cannot see that they have admitted to being unjust with the banning, and instead have admitted to being unjust with their actions after the ban. What triggered all this honestly was Glov being banned and a member of the administration admitting that they were wrong but Glov would still remain banned, so tbh this whole thing was not triggered completely by the actions on a private server. (EDIT- or a grudge)

kisos said:

Also im not quite sure why you are quoting mcme rules because these pictures/memes came up on something unrelated to mcme. I cannot recall anytime a player was banned for ranting or lettingg loose their emotions on a separate server,

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We've had numerous occasions where bans have occurred on "non-MCME" mediums. First one the pops into my head is rcpopcornman and the Podcast incident

kisos said:

1. Why was i given an unappeal-able ban, and my forum account disabled, while the others were only given appeal-able bans, if this was a temporary ban?

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Your ban was set to unappealable because you had been banned before in game and the standard procedure is a permanent ban when this occurs. Your logs show 3 demotions two of which were for "Social Indiscretions" and the appealable ban for the same thing. It's clear you have exceptional build skills and large contributions to the map at large, but think the social rules don't apply to you perhaps? Let's be completely honest here, I've personally witnessed you tell a new player his themebuild is "crap". Hardly diplomatic or encouraging. As a repeat offender to think you've been handled unjustly? I willing admit we had no proof who created the "meme" but seems you think if the same incident happened with new players you would applaud the Enforcers for keeping MCME troll-free?

Glov's ban is totally irrelevant in regards to the 3 bans other than it was initially implemented based on a meme with political references regarding getting Commoner rank. Seems you use Glov's ban as a means to imply revolt against a particular Enforcer or the system as a whole? While you might not have had access to the forums and thereby the "Public Infraction Register" Eaglz and yomama would have been able to tell you it says to contact Delmana, Mandolore100 or myself for clarification or information.

Forum accounts can get locked or temp banned when someone reports a post as being harassing or breaking social rules. The Admins or Enforcers see a report was logged and respond accordingly. Perhaps deleting the post and also by assigning a prescribed number of warning points. These point can accumulate over set periods of time.

I have been relativity open to everything in this thread here and wish to remain so.

DynoDaring said:

We've had numerous occasions where bans have occurred on "non-MCME" mediums. First one the pops into my head is rcpopcornman and the Podcast incident

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Creating accounts in name of MCME to use on other forums, Facebook accounts, other social platforms, Minecraft server listings, or creating accounts that act as if they are affiliated to Minecraft Middle Earth, or registering on other services, is prohibited.
It was literally named The MCME Podcast. It was not server based, but claimed to be which was why it was shut down. The server that all this went down on was neither claiming to be part of MCME nor wants to.

DynoDaring said:

Your ban was set to unappealable because you had been banned before in game and the standard procedure is a permanent ban when this occurs. Your logs show 3 demotions two of which were for "Social Indiscretions" and the appealable ban for the same thing.

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I find this hard to believe seeing as this was not a "standard procedure" but a precautionary ban. I have also only had 1 demotions prior to ban as the other was lifted after review. Srry for being nitpicky. I am willing to accept this though.

DynoDaring said:

but think the social rules don't apply to you perhaps?

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A good question but perhaps sarcasm is not a good thing to throw into a response like this. Certainly I have gotten away with more than the average member.

DynoDaring said:

Let's be completely honest here, I've personally witnessed you tell a new player his themebuild is "crap". Hardly diplomatic or encouraging.

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In this instance did I or did I not help the new player to improve after stating this. Its just as likely that I diddnt as I did, but to state something like this in such a negative fashion is a bit harsh. But again I dont really care about being diplomatic or encouraging. I thought this was a building server, and that is hardly harassment calling someone's themebuild "crap". Make no mistake it is rude, but doesn't really bother me, bringing up old stuff.

DynoDaring said:

As a repeat offender to think you've been handled unjustly?

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Yes. Repeat offenders who do not break the ToS when they are unbanned, should not be banned.
As nothing in the terms of service applys to other servers that are not claiming to be part of mcme. Literally terms of using mcme.
By using any of the services supplied by our Network, you agree to be bound by this Terms of Service, and that you agree with the Rules.
We were not using mcme. Being a member of mcme does not make you mcme property.
you understand and agree that we cannot be responsible for the Content and actions of our members.
This is not exactly saying the same thing but it gets the point across. mcme members does not make that person mcme property. Their messages builds etc are, but not the person themselves.

DynoDaring said:

but seems you think if the same incident happened with new players you would applaud the Enforcers for keeping MCME troll-free?

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When has this ever been the case. Im not sure where you got this.

DynoDaring said:

Glov's ban is totally irrelevant in regards to the 3 bans other than it was initially implemented based on a meme with political references regarding getting Commoner rank. Seems you use Glov's ban as a means to imply revolt against a particular Enforcer or the system as a whole? While you might not have had access to the forums and thereby the "Public Infraction Register" Eaglz and yomama would have been able to tell you it says to contact Delmana, Mandolore100 or myself for clarification or information.

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The banning of Glov is totally relevant. (*hint*, you banned us for memes that were not ours, but they were somebody's *hint*) I am not implying revolt, but calling for change. Idk how you got revolt out of a bunch of rude memes and a silly #buildersunited as a joke when commando got banned which is irrelevant and totally justified ban. I saw the PIR after the bans and there was no mention of contacting you lot. It may have been added later. All I saw was your announcement about an announcement that diddnt happen as you have addressed earlier.

DynoDaring said:

Forum accounts can get locked or temp banned when someone reports a post as being harassing or breaking social rules. The Admins or Enforcers see a report was logged and respond accordingly. Perhaps deleting the post and also by assigning a prescribed number of warning points. These point can accumulate over set periods of time.

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The only thing i posted on the forums in the weeks leading up to this was #buildersunited and about getting a truck as a prize for winning the easter egg hunt. If you marked either of these as "harrassing" or "breaking social rules" the system is flawed, and neither of which were deleted. I also posted something about the resource pack but that was literally trying to help the server. Maybe you disabled my account?

Again I will restate the question, On what grounds was my forum account disabled. I am not asking about theoretically how it can get banned as you answered, but why was MINE disabled? You fail to answer why mine was disabled. Its specific, my account.

A specific question requires a specific answer, which is not stated here. If you are worried about revealing information that is personal to me, I will give you consent to reveal it here, and I see no other reason preventing you from doing so besides wanting to not answer the question directly This could be made a lot more simple if you gave concrete answers and did not bring up previous encounters on the server such as a couple of years ago when i called someones themed build crap.

Im assuming you are in the process of answering question 2 (How and why did you think banning us with or with no follow up investigation, would solve the conflict?), and would like to restate the fact that this is all conversational and appreciate the now going on "contact". I am sorry if this seems like I am systematically attempting to break down your argument (its only kind of that). It is more for the organization. -simple american brain

bold things are questions that still need answering or *hints*


.

You wish me to list all the demotions, bans for K1sk1BBab35, kisos? Standard procedure is generally as such 1st OB-> 2nd OB->Appealable Ban->OB if Appealed->No Appeal Ban.

So I was informed by a different Staff that posts had been made in the past on his Facebook page by an MCME player. He stated that they were questionable ones but he didn't report them. I mention this because it goes along with why I thought the "precaution" ban should issued. Your general conversation took place on a different Discord and that in itself may have resulted in demotions but most likely a simple warning. The bans were not done thinking they would "solve the conflict". After the altered images were shown, the bans were essentially to make a clear statement that this kind of behaviour will not be tolerated. If not for an "external" connection to a player's facebook (which is a direct result of association to MCME) this wouldn't have occurred in the first place.

Let me put this another way.
So let's think in terms of the Enforcer group. It is the Enforcers mandate to ensure players are not subjected to the social rule stated under section E: General as I mentioned previously. You say that everything that happened on a separate Discord outside MCME's purview cannot be held against a player or is not subject to MCME's jurisdiction, however without an "MCME" connection there would not be an image to be pulled from Del's public facebook and get altered in the first place. Irregardless who altered the image, what is relevant is that despite whoever changed the picture, anyone in that channel could have decided it'd be fun to post it on Del's page, and maybe see someone else take the fall for it or have Delmana suffer for it. As a point in case, I was informed the Twitter post allegedly done by Glov that caused him trouble on MCME forums was actually done by someone else (I'm not going to name who). So should we allow a player to think they can make any harassing or abusive images associated to another MCME player with no consequences? Particularly if that image could have real life repercussions?

Hypothetically, if I received information from another Discord conversation with MCME players showing offensive pics pulled from your facebook page of you or perhaps an immediate family member that you feel is not a joke. You can honestly say you're fine with letting them have a free go on our server?

Finrod_Amandil said:

The only notable thing imo is however that Eag was critizing the decision in a very aggressive (in lack of a better word) manner, especially he created a video in which he personally attacked some MCME members.

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sigh