Finished Agar and Udul

Portalrules333 · Feb 16, 2015

Finrod_Amandil said:
The suggestion regarding the placement of Agar/Udul being close to the estuary of the Isen stems from me when i added the project to the public projects list. Neither the placement of Agar / Udul nor Ishmalog is clear, while for Agar/Udul the most likely canditates are both the estuary Region of Isen and Morthond (which are hundreds of miles apart), for Ishmalog Tolkiengateway does not state anything about ist Location, the Middle-Earth Role Play Wiki claims it was located in the Northern Ered Nimrais and later became part of Anórien and Calenardhon, Ardapedia (german) again states that ist placement was unknown. This small lore bit is really nice, didnt know about it before and thus thank you for sharing it. But i don't know whether you wanted to state that the current placement of these towns seems wrong to you now, anyway I don't think this is the case.

The reason btw why I decided Agar/Udul rather being at the Isen than at the Morthond is simply because the Morthond estuary region is already occupied with Edhellond, Dol Amroth and Langstrand. That would not hinder Agar/Udul being there, but this way we can also place something of interest in the elsewhere completely empty Region of Drúwaith Iaur.

I don't think his post had anything to do with you placing Agar/Udul in the wrong place. ^ He was asking if it would be possible to add this valley.

Fornad · Feb 16, 2015

Finrod_Amandil said:
Neither the placement of Agar / Udul nor Ishmalog is clear

This I would contend. Here's a note Tolkien wrote in the early 1960s, with the relevant passage in bold:

"Tal-Elmar.
Beginnings of a tale that sees the Númenóreans from the point of view of the Wild Men. It was begun without much consideration of geography (or the situation as envisaged in The Lord of the Rings). But either it must remain as a separate tale only vaguely linked with the developed Lord of the Rings history, or – and I think so – it must recount the coming of the Númenóreans (Elf-friends) before the Downfall, and represent their choice of permanent havens. So the geography must be made to fit that of the mouths of Anduin and the Langstrand."

Furthermore, a quote from Michael Martinez on the subject:

"Since Tolkien thought the story should be set in the Langstrand, it seems logical to infer that he might have identified the green hills of Agar with the Pinnath Gelin (“green hills”) of Gondor in the later Third Age."

So Agar was probably located south of the Pinnath Gelin - and certainly not in Drúwaith Iaur.

Bombur8 said:
I was only thinking it could be a pretext to build a nice valley...

You'll perhaps be interested to know that Ishmalog is (perhaps) already made.

Tolkien implied that the "North King" mentioned in the battle was Sauron, and that the people of Agar served Sauron in this particular defensive war. The "Fell Folk" whom they fought were described as being tall and fair-skinned, and thus were probably related to the Marachians or Beorians of the First Age and came from Rhovanion (i.e. ancestors of the Northmen and Éothéod of later years).

If these assumptions are correct, then the southern Vales of Anduin would be the only route by which Men of Rhovanion could easily reach the area that the people of Agar inhabited. The vales of Anduin would also have been a strategic region between Mordor and the eastern lands requiring defence against incursions from the north. It therefore seems likely to me that Ishmalog is the valley between the Ered Nimrais and Ephel Dúath which would later became the site of Minas Tirith and Osgiliath.

Kisos · Feb 16, 2015

Fornad said:
This I would contend. Here's a note Tolkien wrote in the early 1960s, with the relevant passage in bold:

"Tal-Elmar.
Beginnings of a tale that sees the Númenóreans from the point of view of the Wild Men. It was begun without much consideration of geography (or the situation as envisaged in The Lord of the Rings). But either it must remain as a separate tale only vaguely linked with the developed Lord of the Rings history, or – and I think so – it must recount the coming of the Númenóreans (Elf-friends) before the Downfall, and represent their choice of permanent havens. So the geography must be made to fit that of the mouths of Anduin and the Langstrand."

Furthermore, a quote from Michael Martinez on the subject:

"Since Tolkien thought the story should be set in the Langstrand, it seems logical to infer that he might have identified the green hills of Agar with the Pinnath Gelin (“green hills”) of Gondor in the later Third Age."

So Agar was probably located south of the Pinnath Gelin - and certainly not in Drúwaith Iaur.

You'll perhaps be interested to know that Ishmalog is (perhaps) already made.

Tolkien implied that the "North King" mentioned in the battle was Sauron, and that the people of Agar served Sauron in this particular defensive war. The "Fell Folk" whom they fought were described as being tall and fair-skinned, and thus were probably related to the Marachians or Beorians of the First Age and came from Rhovanion (i.e. ancestors of the Northmen and Éothéod of later years).

If these assumptions are correct, then the southern Vales of Anduin would be the only route by which Men of Rhovanion could easily reach the area that the people of Agar inhabited. The vales of Anduin would also have been a strategic region between Mordor and the eastern lands requiring defence against incursions from the north. It therefore seems likely to me that Ishmalog is the valley between the Ered Nimrais and Ephel Dúath which would later became the site of Minas Tirith and Osgiliath.

Maybe make dumb this down a little? Is the placement wrong, or where should this valley be?

Fornad · Feb 16, 2015

kisos said:
Maybe make dumb this down a little? Is the placement wrong, or where should this valley be?

TL;DR: Agar should be located south of the Pinnath Gelin, Udul should be further inland from it, and Ishmalog is the valley between Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul so there's no need for it to be built.

Bombur8 · Feb 16, 2015

Fornad said:
Tolkien implied that the "North King" mentioned in the battle was Sauron

But Sauron was never north of Pinnath Gelin ...

Mandos · Feb 16, 2015

We already are nearly done with Agar. We can't really just pick it up and move it. Also creating a large valley would take a lot of Voxel. Also te terrain for Udul has been worked on so I think we have to leave it. I too love valleys but we can't just redo all the work that has already been put in sorry. Also Tolkien was always slightly vague and he often changed things like names and locations. We can only guess at where things really are. Also if you look at the Tolkien Gateway for Agar it says it can be located either near the base of the Isengard OR the Morthond.

Portalrules333 · Feb 17, 2015

Mandos said:
We already are nearly done with Agar. We can't really just pick it up and move it. Also creating a large valley would take a lot of Voxel. Also te terrain for Udul has been worked on so I think we have to leave it. I too love valleys but we can't just redo all the work that has already been put in sorry. Also Tolkien was always slightly vague and he often changed things like names and locations. We can only guess at where things really are. Also if you look at the Tolkien Gateway for Agar it says it can be located either near the base of the Isengard OR the Morthond.

He wasn't asking you to build the valley, he said that the valley already existed (the valley that Minas Tirith and Osgiliath are in).

Fornad · Feb 17, 2015

Mandos said:
Also Tolkien was always slightly vague and he often changed things like names and locations. We can only guess at where things really are.

What part of "the geography must be made to fit that of the mouths of Anduin and the Langstrand" is vague?

Bombur8 said:
But Sauron was never north of Pinnath Gelin ...

Sauron's dominion at the time included the White Mountains, which are north of the Pinnath Gelin.

Portalrules333 · Feb 17, 2015

Fornad said:
What part of "the geography must be made to fit that of the mouths of Anduin and the Langstrand" is vague?

Seems to get the point across for sure! I am not saying that we MUST pick up and move the project, but doing so could definitely make many lore fans happy.

Bombur8 · Feb 17, 2015

Or we could finish the project and pretend it's not Agar and Udul (after all there were Weild Men in Enedwaith, so this could simply be two of their villages).

Finrod_Amandil · Feb 17, 2015

For practical reasons I would not move it, not only would it mean moving quite a big bunch of terrain but also was Agar built in Rohan pack and that would be pretty weird when it was south of Pinnath Gelin.
I'd like to hear @Credoo's opinion here ;-) If moving is preferred i'd take care of that.

Mandos · Feb 17, 2015

All I know is that there were Wild Men in Druwaith Iuar and that Tolkien has mentioned it being ear either the Isen or the Morthond or know Langstrad. That is why I said he was vague. Plus I'm not even sure if Udul is still around because in one story set at the time of Numenorians coming over it says Udul was in the midst of a terrible sickness and people were dying. That was in the second age so Udul might be completely gone. This is the story of Tal-Elmar. It also speaks of how Numenorians came by their shores. This is what I know. I to would like to hear Credoo's opinion though on the matter. I still think though Agar should be left in Druwaith Iaur just because as Fin said of practicality, we would need to do a month or two of work.

Portalrules333 · Feb 17, 2015

Bombur8 said:
Or we could finish the project and pretend it's not Agar and Udul (after all there were Weild Men in Enedwaith, so this could simply be two of their villages).

I am shocked, Bombur! Lying to people is not the way we do things!
.....it can be quite convenient, though....

Also, calling @Credoo, we need a peacemaker to resolve this horrible dispute.

Antimattergizmo · Feb 17, 2015

To give my two cents I agree with Fin that moving a whole town is bad enough, but with a different RP is just silly. Though you could go with Bombur's idea and make that one just a village, and remake the other one closer to where it should be once that's completely agreed upon.

Top_Gun · Feb 18, 2015

I don't think there's any real sense in moving the villages when Tolkien himself never firmly established exactly where they were in the first place. There's a lot of creative leeway when we're dealing with locations on the outermost fringes of the legendarium like this.

Credoo · Feb 18, 2015

Basically what Top_gun said. I'm not completely convinced its in the wrong area and thus see little reason to move an heavily terraformed village over. And even if the evidence becomes convincing I don't think moving it will be a high priority meaning it will have to wait to be moved or not to be moved for a while. Anyway just continue the project as is I like it so far.

Mandos · Feb 18, 2015

PINT00 · Feb 18, 2015

kisos said:
Work has begun! Some great terrain and a nice tree!

You and your tees. Face Palm.

Bombur8 · Feb 18, 2015

Portalrules333 said:
I am shocked, Bombur! Lying to people is not the way we do things!

Why would it be a lie?

Portalrules333 · Feb 18, 2015

Bombur8 said:
Why would it be a lie?

Oh, I dunno.....(I was being sarcastic, by the way )

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