History of Umbar

[Eriol_Eandur]

Well, when I think of the history of Umbar:
- numenorean trade / harvest outpost (probably 600 S.A.)
- numenorean port (probably 1200 S.A.)
- great fortress of Numenor (2280 S.A.)
- main port of the "King's Men" later known as Black Numenorer (3300 S.A.)
It must have been an impressive fortress and great city at that point with Numenor at the peak of it's wealth and power. Probably it was much larger than Pelargir which was the main port of the "Faithful" Numenoreans who were a quite small minority of the numenorean population. Still both cities must have been great towns with large population. Otherwise Isildur and Anarion with just their four ships would not have been able to found the realm of Gondor and build Osgiliath.
Numenorean technology was very advanced at this point. All the great buildings in Osgiliath, Minas Tirith and Isengard were just a distant echo of their technology and power. Also they had ships to sail around the world safely. In real history such ships were not available before late 17th century.
Comparing these towns with Jerusalem 1000 BC seems very off to me. That's during the Iron Age with a very low technology level. I would more think of Leptis Magna for at the time when the roman empire was at the peak of it's power (Leptis Magna - Wikipedia). Still roman technology was considerably below Numenorean technology so I would imagine Umbar even more splendid and more fortified than Leptis Magna at it's height.

But the history of Umbar goes on:
- Earnil I of Gondor conquers Umbar (933 T.A)
- Sieged by the Haradrim ("many years", around 1000 - 1050 T.A.)
- Castamir's son take over Umber during the kin-strife (1448 T.A.)
- Telumehtar of Gondor conquers Umbar (1810 T.A.)
- The Haradrim conquer Umbar (some time between 1856 and 1940 T.A.)
- Aragorn raids the port of Umbar and burns a large part of their fleet (2980 T.A.)
So during Third Age Umbar is conquered several time which usually comes with widespread damage to walls and buildings. In the end it's under control of the Haradrim (a far less advanced people than the Numenorean) for more than 1000 year. This history reminds me very much of the history of Rome or Constantinople during the Middle-ages.
So if looking for inspiration for our Umbar I would do some research about Rome and Constantinople at the end of the Middle Ages (like 1500 AD). Jerusalem and Alexandria at that time might be worth a look too.

 

[Frey]

In Umbar we would have lots ruins of great and ancient buildings from Numenorean rule, and they will be as much ruined as much of the ancient Egyptian buildings are today. The ruins would also go further from the now habited zone of the city, because I would guess in the Numenorean time it was much more prosperous and thus populated. I would also imagine a great ruined fortress on a hill somewhere in the ruins. Style will be exactly the same as Lond Daer with a few minor changes, its realistic because most of the Greek/Roman cities were all really close in architucture, from Middle east all the way to the Western Europe. From Gondor I would say there will be fewer unhabited ruins and much more habited buildings, their sign will be more towards the center. The style will also be close to Numenorean ones because Gondor was stablished by Numenoreans and they stayed on power for a long time and then a break until Aragon which means their culture remains the same but it changes slowly, so I would say if we were to compare to the real world numenor is Rome in ancinet times, gondor is Eastern Rome in Middle ages. I would also imagine some ruins from both Numenoreans and Gondorians along the coastline under the water, like what we have in Alexandria Egypt. Even though one might say the materials from the ruins were used in newer buildings, and thus not a lot shall remain from Gondor and Numenor well I have to agree and disagree, because that is actually more expensive than using new materials as we saw with Arabs trying to use Persian ruins of Ctesiphon and even if they do its not gonna happen to all of the ruins, because if it was like that then no ruins of Ancient Rome a famouse one being Colosseum wouldnt have remaind. After all that we have Haradrim who I would say would have a pretty Arabic/Egyptian style architucture. Their sign will be mostly on the habited zones and they wont have a lot of grand buildings, a couple max, because even though Arabs and Egyptians were really good builders in real life, the haradrim wouldnt, just they would have very similar architucture.
Look at these pictures for example to see how the ruins and healthy buildings should look like together (not the style)

 

[Mithrilled]

I think 17th century ships for Numenorean ships is too late, as even the Vikings sailed around the world centuries before. Erik the Red settled in Greenland in 985 (it's technically part of the America's), and Leif Erikson arrived at Newfoundland around 1000. The vikings made regular ocean crossings and because of this I have always imagined Numenorean (and later Gondorian ships, though they were probably worse) ships closer to large viking knörr ships, which were used for exploration and cargo purposes. I can understand why you would take 17th century ships as a example, because not all viking longships endured the ocean (on one voyage to Greenland only 14 of 25 ships survived), but I still think they are too advanced. Viking longships are definetely fit for exploring coastal but also oceanic regions, and I'd reserve 16th-17th century ships more for the elves (obviously in a very different style, with swans and stuff), as they were even more advanced sailors

Spoiler: Examples of ships

Skuldulev 1, most well preserved knörr ship (quite small), sailed in 1030

Reconstruction of the ship above

They'd probably have different styling, but in general I think these ships are more well fit for the Numenoreans

 

[Frey]

I think 17th century ships for Numenorean ships is too late, as even the Vikings sailed around the world centuries before. Erik the Red settled in Greenland in 985 (it's technically part of the America's), and Leif Erikson arrived at Newfoundland around 1000. The vikings made regular ocean crossings and because of this I have always imagined Numenorean (and later Gondorian ships, though they were probably worse) ships closer to large viking knörr ships, which were used for exploration and cargo purposes. I can understand why you would take 17th century ships as a example, because not all viking longships endured the ocean (on one voyage to Greenland only 14 of 25 ships survived), but I still think they are too advanced. Viking longships are definetely fit for exploring coastal but also oceanic regions, and I'd reserve 16th-17th century ships more for the elves (obviously in a very different style, with swans and stuff), as they were even more advanced sailors

Spoiler: Examples of ships

View attachment 18897
Skuldulev 1, most well preserved knörr ship (quite small), sailed in 1030
View attachment 18898
Reconstruction of the ship above
View attachment 18899

They'd probably have different styling, but in general I think these ships are more well fit for the Numenoreans

I would say they might just be too small, I agree with Eriol more, if I can remember right, there were some description of their ships that made them look like 17th century ships in my mind, I cant remember very well though.

 

[TheSweViking]

well the viking ships manged to do that beacuse they saild along coast lines not diretcly over the vast sea this wasent ppl able to do till the portugese invented the caravel this used a new type of sail that alowed ppl to sail against the wind and that is how the age of exploration started, the. so if we are to take the most primitive type of ship that could travel over the open sea then its should look something more like this:

it is the non squair sails that make this possible

and here you can see what i was talking about when it came to the vikings mostly follow the coast

and here is two good videos talking about it

 

[TheSweViking]

here is my take on umbar as a city: id say that umbar should have a mixture of styles all over the place deu to the massive amounts of ppl and cultures and time that have past, it has been ruin and conquerd several times, numenorean technology was very advanced at the point of umbar being settled and this would be hard replicate and meintain after the fall of numenor and when the numenorian styled building crumbled new styles took its place and sustaining the numenorian style would end up being impossible and thusly leave little of it left even in shapes of ruins deu to them being reused (or atleas some of them) tho the more grander structures sutch as the fort itself would be left in a numenoirian style but inhabited still (like fort joy in divinity). when gonodro retook it they would have rebuilt some of the numenorian stuff but this would be in here newer style, and then when the corsairs join in there focus would be on the harbours, then lastly when the haradrim retook it id say like amha that they would foucs on smaller buildings, these more on the outscurts of the city. when it came to teh numenorian ruins i think they would mainly be grander military buildings or a big fort in the center of the city. when i comes to the geography of umbar id dissagree with it being like carthige and argue that it would be abit more lush this on the baisist that for them to build a big about of grand ships then a need in taller staigt trees would be needed something that wont grow i the abcence of a reliable water sorce, plus on some acounts a river may flow througe umbar but seems to wary, ontop of that so do umbar have more of a hilly surounding unlike carthage, what im saing is not that it cant be like carthinge what im saing is that very mutch mostent be like carthige.with this in minde id also say that in trems of building so shuld we on the server maybe lean towards using a more lush umbars jsut to contrast the more deserty nere harad surounding it, making it destinkt from the tribal area of the harradrim.

 

[TheSweViking]

and if this is unreadeble just ask me

 

[TheSweViking]

the origainal question i had tho before starting this argument was whether ppl would live a more normal city-esk umbar or a more fantasy pirate based umbar, cus so ltle is writen abou this area so i dont think is that big of a stretch to say that the corsairs remodled the city after there liking, something like leagues bilgewater, a pirate hideout.





like lets say the area surounding the fortress was really hard to epand out of so the corsairs decided to build upward and you could let the ruins be the foundations and beacus there is so litle writen about thsi area we have a chane to use out creative liberty to make something diffrent from every other town

 

[Eriol_Eandur]

It's incredible what the vikings managed to do with their ships. But to be honest, those ships were in no way comparable with the ships of the numenoreans. Correct me if I'm wrong but they didn't even had a deck with some shelter below. The Vikings obviously were very skilled and willing to go great risks, but they ships were not really suited for open ocean voyages. In some way I imagine the ships of the Eldar to be similar to the viking's ships. Small, light, fast and Elves with their close bonds to the elements of Middle-earth (see Legolas at Caradhras) didn't really need much shelter.
The shipsbuilding of Numenor was based on the elvish craftmanship. Especially Aldarion stayed with Cirdan for several years to learn all about shipbuilding:

and in those days he put to use the knowledge he had gained of Círdan concerning the making of ships, devising much anew of his own thought, and he began also to set men to the improvement of the havens and the quays, for he was ever eager to build greater vessels.

But on this base the Numenoreans developed shipbuilding a lot, especially they increased the size of their ships greatly. Aldarions first ship:

There was joy in Rómenna and Armenelos when men saw the great ship Númerrámar (which signifies "Westwings") coming up from the sea, her golden sails reddened in the sunset.

His next ship was designed to be a guildhouse and living place!! but still was able to sail along the shore of Numenor:

At that time he, having no mind to live upon land in Armenelos, had a ship built that should serve as his dwelling-place; he named it therefore Eämbar, and at times he would sail in it from haven to haven of Númenor, but for the most part it lay at anchor off Tol Uinen: and that was a little isle in the bay of Rómenna that was set there by Uinen the Lady of the Seas. 7 Upon Eämbar was the Guildhouse of the Venturers, and there were kept the records of their great voyages;

And development continued:

The ships of the Númenóreans became ever larger and of greater draught in those days, until they could make far voyages, carrying many men and great cargoes;

and continued

but [Aldarion] passed his days upon the ship Eämbar in the company of the Venturers, and in the building of a vessel greater than any made before: that ship he named Palarran, the Far-Wanderer.

and continued

and a vision came to him [Aldarion] of a mighty vessel like a castle with tall masts and great sails like clouds, bearing men and stores enough for a town. Then in the yards of Rómenna the saws and hammers were busy, while among many lesser craft a great ribbed hull took shape; at which men wondered. Turuphanto, the Wooden Whale, they called it, but that was not its name. ...
Hirilondë he named it, Haven-finder;

It's such a huge progression and all took place in a few decades even before Aldarion became King of Numenor. Also it was not supported but opposed by his father Tar-Meneldur. After he became King he continued shipbuilding and voyaging to Middle-earth for almost 200 years and layed the foundations for the fleets of Numenor to rule the oceans for the next 2300 years.
Tolkien takes great care in "Aldarion and Erendis" to describe the growth of ship size (Númerrámar -> Eämbar -> Palarran -> Hirilondë) as well as the huge size "vessel like a castle", "stores enough for a town". I actually think 17th century ships are not fitting this description, they are too small

 

[Frey]

here is my take on umbar as a city: id say that umbar should have a mixture of styles all over the place deu to the massive amounts of ppl and cultures and time that have past, it has been ruin and conquerd several times, numenorean technology was very advanced at the point of umbar being settled and this would be hard replicate and meintain after the fall of numenor and when the numenorian styled building crumbled new styles took its place and sustaining the numenorian style would end up being impossible and thusly leave little of it left even in shapes of ruins deu to them being reused (or atleas some of them) tho the more grander structures sutch as the fort itself would be left in a numenoirian style but inhabited still (like fort joy in divinity). when gonodro retook it they would have rebuilt some of the numenorian stuff but this would be in here newer style, and then when the corsairs join in there focus would be on the harbours, then lastly when the haradrim retook it id say like amha that they would foucs on smaller buildings, these more on the outscurts of the city. when it came to teh numenorian ruins i think they would mainly be grander military buildings or a big fort in the center of the city. when i comes to the geography of umbar id dissagree with it being like carthige and argue that it would be abit more lush this on the baisist that for them to build a big about of grand ships then a need in taller staigt trees would be needed something that wont grow i the abcence of a reliable water sorce, plus on some acounts a river may flow througe umbar but seems to wary, ontop of that so do umbar have more of a hilly surounding unlike carthage, what im saing is not that it cant be like carthinge what im saing is that very mutch mostent be like carthige.with this in minde id also say that in trems of building so shuld we on the server maybe lean towards using a more lush umbars jsut to contrast the more deserty nere harad surounding it, making it destinkt from the tribal area of the harradrim.

Carthage was the navy power of its time, even with that geography, I disagree, also in the lore it is said far harad is tropical and not the harad itself. The geography is certainly like Carthage.

 

[TheSweViking]

Carthage was the navy power of its time, even with that geography, I disagree, also in the lore it is said far harad is tropical and not the harad itself. The geography is certainly like Carthage.

well yes cartahe was the naval power but as stated earlier so dod the numenorians use mush biger ships the both the vikings and thusly also the cathageinians, the trierime dosent holde up, and on a side not, carthage was the naval superpower deu to there not existing any real oponents cus most ppl didnt know how to build ships, like rome, and those that did like grece wasnt really in the best of shapes.like there exist a reason (or well many) why no grater navel power (in the middle ages) never came out of africa

an djust beacuse nere harad is described as a desert dosent mean that all of it have to be, just the majority and thenyou can argue that its not really the real of umbar that they are always talking about when they are tlking about nere harad

 

[Frey]

well yes cartahe was the naval power but as stated earlier so dod the numenorians use mush biger ships the both the vikings and thusly also the cathageinians, the trierime dosent holde up, and on a side not, carthage was the naval superpower deu to there not existing any real oponents cus most ppl didnt know how to build ships, like rome, and those that did like grece wasnt really in the best of shapes.like there exist a reason (or well many) why no grater navel power (in the middle ages) never came out of africa

an djust beacuse nere harad is described as a desert dosent mean that all of it have to be, just the majority and thenyou can argue that its not really the real of umbar that they are always talking about when they are tlking about nere harad

Carthage wasnt in middle of a desert but very close to one. Same goes for Umbar, around Umbar it was all desert and you can see it on map and it is written, thats for certain, but I would say Umbar and places near it were all like Carthage. Also, Numenoreans wouldnt make their ships in Umbar, they would have done it in their own island or in other places and also you dont always need wood like that and even if you do you can import and also in geography of Carthage trees could grow, Umbar was most likely a base for trading with Far Harad because it was a tropical region which has a lot of things that arent in other places and also it was close to some mines I would guess. That kind of style for the city that you say would be far to the south too, Haradrim were pretty much like Arabs which means theyll have similar architecture. And also as you saw Eriol said Umbar was even larger then Pelargir in those times, which makes Numnorean ruins more common and also more widespread, both close to coastline and under the sea and on land. When Numenor fell surly city starts to decline and when Gondor takes it the population was at least half of the original, under Gondorian rule though I would say it would have grown and then with Haradrim taking it it would again drop and after sometime grow once more which will divide the city to three parts. An outer part with only Numenorean ruins of large and small buildings. The second part will be between the outer and central part and there youll find both Numnorean and Gondorian ruins and this place will be habited but not a lot of people would live there. Then we have the central habited part, with a lot of dense small buildings of Haradrim and some ancient but habited buidlings. I myself would put the fortress on a hill in the second part between the outer and central part.

 

[TheSweViking]

Carthage wasnt in middle of a desert but very close to one. Same goes for Umbar, around Umbar it was all desert and you can see it on map and it is written, thats for certain, but I would say Umbar and places near it were all like Carthage. Also, Numenoreans wouldnt make their ships in Umbar, they would have done it in their own island or in other places and also you dont always need wood like that and even if you do you can import and also in geography of Carthage trees could grow, Umbar was most likely a base for trading with Far Harad because it was a tropical region which has a lot of things that arent in other places and also it was close to some mines I would guess. That kind of style for the city that you say would be far to the south too, Haradrim were pretty much like Arabs which means theyll have similar architecture. And also as you saw Eriol said Umbar was even larger then Pelargir in those times, which makes Numnorean ruins more common and also more widespread, both close to coastline and under the sea and on land. When Numenor fell surly city starts to decline and when Gondor takes it the population was at least half of the original, under Gondorian rule though I would say it would have grown and then with Haradrim taking it it would again drop and after sometime grow once more which will divide the city to three parts. An outer part with only Numenorean ruins of large and small buildings. The second part will be between the outer and central part and there youll find both Numnorean and Gondorian ruins and this place will be habited but not a lot of people would live there. Then we have the central habited part, with a lot of dense small buildings of Haradrim and some ancient but habited buidlings. I myself would put the fortress on a hill in the second part between the outer and central part.

first and for most is that i doo agree with you that the numenorians probs didnt make there ships there but thats beside the piont, cus we know that umbar themself under the rule of the corsais still made big ship, thats like many many years of ship building and infarasrtuctue strounding it somthing that would be sustaineble if a steady income of big trees were close at hand, and where would tey be able to inport it from? During the corsairs time a massive amount of would would be needed and traiding with the northen lansd would not be an option.

when it comes to the layout your suggesting i most really disagree, the numenorian parts would most certaintly be in the center but i can agree to saing that some of this area would be rebuilt in gondorian style, but with the haradrim id say that the leaders would take the more lushus area at the center but that there stayle would mostlikly be seen at the outscurts of teh city, this is deu what we stated erlier with the fact the the haraderm probs couldnt build that grans strucktures and thuslu being able to stack living spaces as efficient, id say that the haradrim style would be most prominent in form of huts or smaller-medium houses nerer the outside of the citythese built by a mixture of ruins and more traditional haradrim style, plus saying the haradrim basicly is adrabs id argue is falls due to the haradrim being a normadic ppl something the arabs was not, but i can still think the more oriental design might be used on the few setlements that may exist

 

[TheSweViking]

and arnep why all the reactions?

 

[Frey]

first and for most is that i doo agree with you that the numenorians probs didnt make there ships there but thats beside the piont, cus we know that umbar themself under the rule of the corsais still made big ship, thats like many many years of ship building and infarasrtuctue strounding it somthing that would be sustaineble if a steady income of big trees were close at hand, and where would tey be able to inport it from? During the corsairs time a massive amount of would would be needed and traiding with the northen lansd would not be an option.

when it comes to the layout your suggesting i most really disagree, the numenorian parts would most certaintly be in the center but i can agree to saing that some of this area would be rebuilt in gondorian style, but with the haradrim id say that the leaders would take the more lushus area at the center but that there stayle would mostlikly be seen at the outscurts of teh city, this is deu what we stated erlier with the fact the the haraderm probs couldnt build that grans strucktures and thuslu being able to stack living spaces as efficient, id say that the haradrim style would be most prominent in form of huts or smaller-medium houses nerer the outside of the citythese built by a mixture of ruins and more traditional haradrim style, plus saying the haradrim basicly is adrabs id argue is falls due to the haradrim being a normadic ppl something the arabs was not, but i can still think the more oriental design might be used on the few setlements that may exist

First of all, as I said Carthage was the navy power of its time and well their ships were large enough to compare to Haradrims ships. Also as I said in that geography trees could grow but not in mass amounts like forests. They could also import wood from south where its tropical. Also what you say about how the city should look like cant be done and isnt realistic. See, when we have a large city that then starts to decline people more and more start to leave the outer parts and go to the central parts which in this case is around the port. But then the city starts to grow under Gondorians and thats why we have Gondorian ruins in the second part, but then with the fall of the city we have another decline until it stablizes and starts to grow under Haradrim and thats why in the center we have habited buildings and because the population is growing the second part is beginning to be populated. See, when a city starts to decline people move to the center being tribal has nothing to do with it and cant be considerd a point because tribal or not this would happen. Also there were many many Arabic tribes, until Islam united them so what you say about Arabs not being tribal isnt true. Also being in a tribe tribe doesnt mean you have to live in tents, as we saw with Arabs living in towns but still they had many tribes.

 

[TheSweViking]

First of all, as I said Carthage was the navy power of its time and well their ships were large enough to compare to Haradrims ships. Also as I said in that geography trees could grow but not in mass amounts like forests. They could also import wood from south where its tropical. Also what you say about how the city should look like cant be done and isnt realistic. See, when we have a large city that then starts to decline people more and more start to leave the outer parts and go to the central parts which in this case is around the port. But then the city starts to grow under Gondorians and thats why we have Gondorian ruins in the second part, but then with the fall of the city we have another decline until it stablizes and starts to grow under Haradrim and thats why in the center we have habited buildings and because the population is growing the second part is beginning to be populated. See, when a city starts to decline people move to the center being tribal has nothing to do with it and cant be considerd a point because tribal or not this would happen. Also there were many many Arabic tribes, until Islam united them so what you say about Arabs not being tribal isnt true. Also being in a tribe tribe doesnt mean you have to live in tents, as we saw with Arabs living in towns but still they had many tribes.

Tbh, we should probs stop the geografic question cus we cant really know what the clinat was without really knowing the wind direction, where the winds turn, like at the tropic of cancer, changes curent and downpore, tho saing that beacuse carthage was a navle power dosent prove anything cus first of all so is a trierime to small to sail on the open ocean, plus so could they not contest with the romans, who had alot more trees, once they fought, plus carthage existed only for 600 years not even 1/5 of umbars, and during al that time have umbar been concidetd a navle plower able to rivle gondor who we know had big ships abd thusly umbar shold have big ships and having the timber to sustain it. When it comes to the import of trees that is a far stretch id say, we dont know how far south far harad is nor do we know if they had the technology to sail at all, this would be needed cus transporting several tons of wood over the deser speaks for itself, it just woundnt be sustaebke to import wood almost across a whole continane to conntinue being a bavle city, once the wood around umbar ran out then that would be it and the ppl would go back to a more harad culture. I do tho acknowlage the fact that just beacus they were tribal dose not mean they lived in tents but nor did i never claim that, i said they were a normadic ppl not tribal, but that they also did build permanent struchers, this is canon that they did cus we know sauron tought them archeteture. Ontop of this so shold the haradrim style be precent on the outscurts of the city, the city is undubtyli bigger now then when the numenorians founded it they only ruled over it for 1500-ish years, sure it would be big but the population surly would increes during the 3000 years that followed, the numenorians had longer lived and thysly longer between generations this unlike the following rulers and inhabitans and the fewer years between generations the faster the expanential curve of the population increeses, this ontop of the fact that more advanced civilations tend to have less children compaird to those who are less advanced we can almost certaintly say that more children were born per perent in harad society then in numenorian one, with all this in mind the city would more then likly expand and with this the haradrim style would akso expand outwards. This with what YOU said yourself that the haradrim probs couldnt build as grand strutchers as numenore and thusly also host less ppl in the vertical axise would result in a moer hoses using the haradrim style in the outside. Tho i can agree on the fact that haradrim style could be at the center also, this simular to how when the arabs conqured constantibople so redid they some of the main landmaks in the center, like haga sophia. If anything so would i say cobstantinopel/istanbul is a mutch better comparison then tex rome, rome has always been ruled by a simular ppl tho being saced a few times, istanbul on the other hand is much better, founded by the greeks (acting like numenore, tho less advaned), tho developed by the romans(acting like the gondorians) , was a very important port and has always been, basicly was a fortress and city in one, was conqured by a foren culture (arabs, acting like harad) and changed into it and has existed for 2600 years, the only diffrence is really that the arabs probs was more advanded then the and did not warship the dark lord nor plus that istanbul is rather far from the ocean

 

[Frey]

Tbh, we should probs stop the geografic question cus we cant really know what the clinat was without really knowing the wind direction, where the winds turn, like at the tropic of cancer, changes curent and downpore, tho saing that beacuse carthage was a navle power dosent prove anything cus first of all so is a trierime to small to sail on the open ocean, plus so could they not contest with the romans, who had alot more trees, once they fought, plus carthage existed only for 600 years not even 1/5 of umbars, and during al that time have umbar been concidetd a navle plower able to rivle gondor who we know had big ships abd thusly umbar shold have big ships and having the timber to sustain it. When it comes to the import of trees that is a far stretch id say, we dont know how far south far harad is nor do we know if they had the technology to sail at all, this would be needed cus transporting several tons of wood over the deser speaks for itself, it just woundnt be sustaebke to import wood almost across a whole continane to conntinue being a bavle city, once the wood around umbar ran out then that would be it and the ppl would go back to a more harad culture. I do tho acknowlage the fact that just beacus they were tribal dose not mean they lived in tents but nor did i never claim that, i said they were a normadic ppl not tribal, but that they also did build permanent struchers, this is canon that they did cus we know sauron tought them archeteture. Ontop of this so shold the haradrim style be precent on the outscurts of the city, the city is undubtyli bigger now then when the numenorians founded it they only ruled over it for 1500-ish years, sure it would be big but the population surly would increes during the 3000 years that followed, the numenorians had longer lived and thysly longer between generations this unlike the following rulers and inhabitans and the fewer years between generations the faster the expanential curve of the population increeses, this ontop of the fact that more advanced civilations tend to have less children compaird to those who are less advanced we can almost certaintly say that more children were born per perent in harad society then in numenorian one, with all this in mind the city would more then likly expand and with this the haradrim style would akso expand outwards. This with what YOU said yourself that the haradrim probs couldnt build as grand strutchers as numenore and thusly also host less ppl in the vertical axise would result in a moer hoses using the haradrim style in the outside. Tho i can agree on the fact that haradrim style could be at the center also, this simular to how when the arabs conqured constantibople so redid they some of the main landmaks in the center, like haga sophia. If anything so would i say cobstantinopel/istanbul is a mutch better comparison then tex rome, rome has always been ruled by a simular ppl tho being saced a few times, istanbul on the other hand is much better, founded by the greeks (acting like numenore, tho less advaned), tho developed by the romans(acting like the gondorians) , was a very important port and has always been, basicly was a fortress and city in one, was conqured by a foren culture (arabs, acting like harad) and changed into it and has existed for 2600 years, the only diffrence is really that the arabs probs was more advanded then the and did not warship the dark lord nor plus that istanbul is rather far from the ocean

First of all you dont need to know anything about wind because Tolkien himself has said that Near Harad was a large desert and Umbar was in west of Near Harad. So now change Near Harad to Sahara desert (North Africa) and change Umbar to Carthage, fits perfectly, no more arguments can be said about that. Secondly Constantinople was never conquered by Arabs but Turks (that mistake will make a lot of Turks angry). Also about Rome your wrong, after that emperor Romulus Augustus was forced to give up the throne, Italy became a Germanic kingdom (Ostrogoth) and you cant say Romans were the same as Germans. Also Carthage was the biggest rival and enemy to Rome at the time which means not a lot would have been imported to Carthage from Rome. Please make sure that youve got everything right about history first. Anyways, I want you too look at population of city of Rome at year 100 AD, its about 1,500,000 people, then look what happens at year 200 AD until 300 AD a decline begins which makes the population drop to less than 500,000. With sack of Rome (which actually happened a few times) the population dropped again. Until we reach the Renaissance that the population grows again and about the year 1935 the Rome gains back all its lost population. It took Rome about 1700 years to recover. Now in Middle Earth clearly we havent reached the Renaissance or modern days of Umbar so this means population is a hundred percent less than half the original. Secondly the Black Numenoreans lost their long lives, if you remember, because of turning away from God and fading with local population. What you say about population growing faster in less advanced civilizations is wrong, youve got somethign wrong. See in modern world, the West reached a high technology earlier than the East. At first population grew very fast in West because suddenly health care was better, people were becoming wealthier and thus the population just grew and grew, until after about a hundred years with people having these advancments for long, started to think of other things, they reached a point when bringing babies and marrying wasnt the first priority, the culture, the society started to change. People started to think of living fun and better lives. Then now East is starting to have those advancements, same shall happen there, population shall go high, then shall be natural and then negative. In the past though there was nothing like that, if it was, the population of Rome wouldnt have been much higher in advanced ancient times than the dark ages. In the modern world, in surface yes, more advanced, less population growth and vice versa but in the past it was the opposite. Also you should focus on the map a little. If you do youll see that Umbar wasnt directly connected to the ocean but to Bay of Belfalas. This means they wouldnt need that much technology for building ships that can go through oceans. Also you have to remember its not always to the materials but to how you build a ship. Umbar was also the northern most settlement of Numernoreans in Harad which means yes when it fell to Haradrim the other settlements did too and that they could have brought wood from the more southern lands which are tropical. But even without those as I said trees could grow in geography of Carthage so your point cant be considered acceptable. Also as I said Haradrim wouldnt be able to build like Numenoreans but look, in the Numenorean time it was more like large villas and roads and bath houses and apartments and greenery but in the Hardrims time itll be more like Middle ages, they went vertical up too, not much but they did, though their buildings were smaller their roads less wide, less grand buildings, etc. (Btw t.ex. is Swedish, I understand it but not everyone, English would be e.g.) Look at the pics to understand better about what I mean.

 

[Frey]

"Some time ago we had some discussion at discord about the climate of Umbar and Harad.
I just found an interesting note from Tolkien on a map that says Umbar was at the latitude of Cyprus.
https://www.tolkiensociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/transcribed-map.jpg"

And I found this by the way, its written by Eriol. As you know Cyprus and Carthage are really close in real life and have a very similar geography/climate, both being situated on the coasts of Mediterranean sea, being aligned, etc. They both have similar rainfall and temperatures through out the years, especially if you compare the times when Carthage was habited (which is the time we talk and care about in this discussion) with modern day Cyprus.

 

[TheSweViking]

Why not? I like to read all this and its good that people spend time on writing this. I just show my estimate

Understandble, just feelt like it was just as if you liked it no matter what we wrote, mb

 

[TheSweViking]

"Some time ago we had some discussion at discord about the climate of Umbar and Harad.
I just found an interesting note from Tolkien on a map that says Umbar was at the latitude of Cyprus.
https://www.tolkiensociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/transcribed-map.jpg"

And I found this by the way, its written by Eriol. As you know Cyprus and Carthage are really close in real life and have a very similar geography/climate, both being situated on the coasts of Mediterranean sea, being aligned, etc. They both have similar rainfall and temperatures through out the years, especially if you compare the times when Carthage was habited (which is the time we talk and care about in this discussion) with modern day Cyprus.

I am much more enclinde to accept Cyprus this for a few resons, but the main one being that if you look at a wind map of the Mediterranean youll see that the hot wind from the sahara blowes over carthage and thusly there over all temperature is slightly higher and there is less rain in carthage. Here are the sorce:

Even tho its not that much i think its better, and to be frank so has this argument started to bore me